Tag Archives: Sam Shamoun

Sam Shamoun Refutes Jay Smith: Can the Christian God Do Anything?

Recently, Jay Smith was approached in Hyde Park by Br. Paul and was questioned regarding a popular polemical claim regarding God’s power. His claim is that the Christian God is so powerful, that this God can become a man. I have explained in detail why this is an ontologically weak argument. He was then asked by Br. Paul, can the Christian God become Satan? Unfortunately, Jay refused to reply.

Surprisingly, Smith’s friend and admirer, Sam Shamoun found Jay’s claim to be quite heretical. Sam publicly denied the claim that the Christian God can and will do anything. In his publicly damning refutation of Jay Smith, Sam used the Bible to prove his point, he said:

For example, the true God in the Holy Bible plainly and emphatically claims that there are certain things that are impossible for him to do due to his holy and immutable nature:

“for the gifts and the calling of God are IRREVOCABLE.” Romans 11:29 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

” in the hope of eternal life that God, who NEVER lies, promised before the ages began—” Titus 1:2 NRSV

“if we are faithless, he remains faithful—for he CANNOT deny himself.” 2 Timothy 2:13 NRSV

“In the same way, when God desired to show even more clearly to the heirs of the promise the UNCHANGEABLE character of his purpose, he guaranteed it by an oath, so that through two UNCHANGEABLE things, in which it is IMPOSSIBLE that God would prove false, we who have taken refuge might be strongly encouraged to seize the hope set before us. ” Hebrews 6:17-18 NRSV

“No one, when tempted, should say, ‘I am being tempted by God’; for God CANNOT be tempted by evil and he himself tempts no one.” James 1:13 NRSV

Sam Shamoun’s refutation of Jay Smith’s heretical teachings about Christ raises an interesting question. If Jay Smith and Sam Shamoun, who have studied for decades about Christianity, and who have worked in polemics for several decades together, can claim that the other is teaching heretical beliefs about God – then who’s the real Christian between them?

Is Sam Shamoun wrong and Jay Smith correct?

Is Jay Smith wrong and Sam Shamoun correct?

Which Christ is the real Christ?

Will the true Christian please stand up?

and God knows best.

Mari Kaimo: Religious Beliefs Not to be Discussed in Group About Religious Discussion

I’m not exactly sure if I’ve lost my sanity or if I’m misunderstanding something. Let’s take a look at this group’s definition:

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If I’m reading this correctly, this is a group created for the purpose of Muslim and Christian Discussion. Just to ensure I’m understanding this, I checked the group’s “about” definition:

 

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I was a bit surprised while scrolling through my newsfeed to see the following:

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An Anglo-Christian person being removed for heresy, in a group which its purpose is to discuss religious belief…..that’s….odd? So I decided to look a bit closer:

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Mari Kaimo wastes no time, if you reject the Bible – you’re a heretic, which is odd in a group that is dedicated to Christian and Muslim dialogue. It suddenly made sense why I could find at most 1 or 2 active Muslims commenting in the group. They’ve been banning Muslims in a Christian-Muslim religious dialogue group because to them, Muslim beliefs were heretical.

piccard facepalm

 

Surely, this “Preacher” and friend of Shamoun would know that in a dialogue group about religion, there would be users who practised different religions in all their forms and differences. Surely? I guess not:

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Where is this leading…?

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I had just one reaction, this just sums it up entirely:

flip table

 

I’ve seen some pretty ridiculous things in my life. This is by far, one of the single most absurd things I have ever had the displeasure of witnessing. I probably stared at my screen for a few minutes, in sheer awe at the line of reasoning being played out in front of me. To recap….., this is a group created for the purpose of inter-faith dialogue and discussion. However, if you practise a religion which Christianity (as believed in by Mari Kaimo) disagrees with, you’re going to be kicked out/ removed. Surely, there are smarter people out there in the world. I’ve said it once before and I’ll say it again, this guy is a walking, talking, breathing contradiction inside and out. I pray that this is bad sarcasm at work, there is nothing, no excuse that can allow anyone to rationalize the absurdity of such a situation. If this is anything to go by, I thank God that these are the Christian Apologists and Missionaries that currently lead the Christian faith. They have made our job of conveying Islam so much easier. With people like these, there is no question as to why so many Christians quite literally get frustrated and leave the faith. I feel embarrassed for the Christian community because of this guy, in no way does this person represent a religion with 2000 years worth of study behind it.

and God surely, very surely, knows best.

Sam Shamoun Runs Away Again!

While perusing Paltalk, I came across a room entitled, “The Trinity and the King James Bible“, the moment I entered Sam Shamoun spotted me and I grabbed my phone and recorded him whining and complaining that I got him into hot water with James White. After whining for 21 seconds, as an Administrator of the room, he bounces me (kicks me out of it). Christians who support him need to ask, if he isn’t afraid of discussing what he says, why does he run away and prevent discussions from occurring? Why does he only choose to argue with Muslims who aren’t as educated in the field of theology as we are? Here’s the recording, you can here him whining and then bouncing me (the ping sound):

and God knows best.

Why Do Muslims Insist on Referring to the Arabic Literary Sources?

Question:

When Christians post information about Islam and we ask that they refer to the Arabic, they say to us that Muslims always evade discussing a quote by wasting time on going to the Arabic language and want to debate the translation, etc. What is your response to this?

Answer:

Indeed, this is a very common claim about the Muslim and God willing, it shall be dealt with in detail using extensive examples in this article. In responsible discourse, the parties who exchange information implicitly accept the position of accountability for the quotes they present, with the understanding that it should be properly referenced/ cited. This is common in academic discourse and a responsible individual will not object to the validating of references or of quotations. The question must be asked to the non-Muslim, whether they be a Christian, Atheist, Hindu or Jew, on why they are evading their academic responsibility of ensuring that their quote is accurate or that their citation is reliable? Surely, if everything is accurate with the information presented, they would have no reason to object to their information being double checked and verified.

The question therefore begs itself. Do Muslims have a reason or a need to verify and validate information about Islam as presented by non-Muslims? The Qur’aan answers this for us by stating:

“O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful.” – Qur’aan 49:6.

From this verse, a Muslim must understand that verifying information about Islam from non-Muslims is not a matter of evading discussing the quote or reference, rather it is a religious duty as commanded by God that this verification process is done. If one wishes, this verse should be presented to the one who claims that Muslims are evading the discussion, atleast with this being presented they will be able to understand that you do intend to discuss the quotes/ references, but that you must at the very least be able to validate that what you are discussing is accurate information.

Examples of Manipulation of Islamic Texts by Orientalists and Christian Apologists

Case 1:

We read from Christian Apologist Nabeel Qureishi the following quote , sourced from an unverified and critically poor translation. Despite Nabeel’s University education, he failed to validate the translation he was using:

Ibn Masud does not think highly of today’s Quran, the one collected by Zaid. In comparing himself to Zaid, he says:

The people have been guilty of deceit in the reading of the Qur’an. I like it better to read according to the recitation of him (Prophet) whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit. By Him besides Whom there is no god! I learnt more than seventy surahs from the lips of the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, while Zayd Ibn Thabit was a youth, having two locks and playing with the youth.” (Ibn Sa’d, Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, Vol. 2, p.444) –

This is a wrong translation. The translation should actually be:

So conceal the manuscripts! I like it better to read according to the recitation of him (Prophet) whom I love more than that of Zayd Ibn Thabit. By Him besides Whom there is no god! I learnt more than seventy surahs from the lips of the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, while Zayd Ibn Thabit was a youth, having two locks and playing with the youth.”

Not only is the translation wrong, the actual Arabic text does not include the phrase, “in the reading of the Quran“.

فَغَلَّوُا الْمَصَاحِفَ. فَلأَنْ أَقْرَأَ عَلَى قِرَاءَةِ مَنْ أُحِبُّ أَحَبَّ إِلَيَّ مِنْ أَنْ أَقْرَأَ عَلَى قِرَاءَةِ زَيْدِ بْنِ ثابت. فو الذي لا إِلَهَ غَيْرُهُ لَقَدْ أَخَذْتُ مِنْ فِيِّ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ – صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ – بِضْعًا وَسَبْعِينَ سُورَةً. وَزَيْدُ بْنُ ثَابِتٍ غُلامٌ لَهُ ذُؤَابَتَانِ يَلْعَبُ مَعَ الْغِلْمَانِ

The issue with the translation pertains to the meaning of the word “فَغَلَّوُا ” (the first word in the sentence), transliterated as “ghalla”. The Christian missionary asserts that it means “deceit”, which is contrary to the basic meaning of the word, which is “to hide/ conceal”. In a similar report in Jami’ Tirmidhi, the wording is given as:

قَالَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مَسْعُودٍ: ” يَا أَهْلَ العِرَاقِ اكْتُمُوا المَصَاحِفَ الَّتِي عِنْدَكُمْ وَغُلُّوهَا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ يَقُولُ: {وَمَنْ يَغْلُلْ يَأْتِ بِمَا غَلَّ يَوْمَ القِيَامَةِ} فَالقُوا اللَّهَ بِالمَصَاحِفِ

Abdullah bin Mas’ud said: ‘O people of Al-Iraq! Keep the Musahif that are with you, and conceal them. For indeed Allah said: And whoever conceals something, he shall come with what he concealed on the Day of Judgement. So meet Allah with the Musahif.'” (Jami’ Tirmidhi, Hadith 3104)

What is odd here, is that we can see from the Christian’s translation, they maintain the word to mean “conceal”, why didn’t they translate it to be “deceit” as they did before? We should also note that at the end of the narration it says, “Meet Allah with the masahif”. If “ghalla” was to be translated as “deceit” then the entire narration would be incomprehensible! In Kitab al-Masahif of Ibn Abi Dawud Khumayr bin Malik says:

سَمِعْتُ ابْنَ مَسْعُودٍ يَقُولُ: ” إِنِّي غَالٌّ مُصْحَفِي، فَمَنِ اسْتَطَاعَ أَنْ يَغُلَّ مُصْحَفًا فَلْيَغْلُلْ، فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ يَقُولُ: {وَمَنْ يَغْلُلْ يَأْتِ بِمَا غَلَّ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ}

“I heard Ibn Masud saying: I have concealed my Mushaf. Whoever can conceal his mushaf he should conceal it. For Allah says, “And whoever conceals something, he shall come with what he concealed on the Day of Judgement.”” (Kitab al-Masahif, Narration 52)

In this narration, if we were to translate “إِنِّي غَالٌّ مُصْحَفِي“, it would mean, “I have deceived my mushaf”, in English it would be akin to saying, “I lied to the book”, as opposed to saying “I concealed my book”. This therefore, should illustrate the absurdity of Christian missionaries tampering with translations.

Case 2:

In the book, “The Collection of the Qur’an, (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2010)“, by Christian missionary John Burton, on page 242,  254 we read his translation of the following narration:

وكان الرجل يجيء بالورقة والأديم فيه القرآن، حتى جمع من ذلك كثرة، ثم دخل عثمان فدعاهم رجلا رجلا فناشدهم لسمعت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وهو أملاه عليك؟ فيقول: نعم

He translates this as:

“One would come with a parchment or a scrap of leather with a Qur’an verse on it until there was gathered great store of such.’Uthman adjured them one by one, ‘You heard the Prophet recite this?’ They would answer that that was so.”

However, the portion of the narration, ” وهو أملاه عليك” (emphasized in bold above), is purposefully excluded from the translation. The complete translation would read:

“One would come with a parchment or a scrap of leather with a Qur’an verse on it until there was gathered great store of such.’Uthman adjured them one by one, ‘You heard the Prophet recite this while he dictated it to you?’ They would answer that that was so.”

The exclusion of this portion of the narration is a serious attempt at negating the Prophet’s (salallaahu ‘alayhi wa salam) personal role in dictating the Qur’aan to scribes in their presence. It is intentional he excluded this portion of the narration as the reference he gives for the narration includes it entirely, this being Arthur Jeffery’s (the editor of the book), “Kitab al-Masahif”, page 24. Thus far, we have seen purposeful mistranslations and in this case, exclusion of a portion of the narration.

Case 3:

A narration from ‘Abdullah bin ‘Umar quoted by Hafidh as-Suyuti (d. 911 A.H.) in his, “al-Itiqan fee ‘Uloom al-Qur’an”, has become a source of joy for some missionaries. However, their contextual rendition of many of its quotes is so deceptive, it is astounding that they would publicly risk such dishonesty! In this case, Sam Shamoun presents us with this translation:

‘Abdullah bin ‘Umar reportedly said: “Let none of you say, ‘I have got the whole of the Qur’an.’ How does he know what all of it is? MUCH OF THE QUR’AN IS GONE. Let him say instead, ‘I have got what has survived.’”

This narration is contained under the title of the chapter which reads as follows, “Section forty-seven: About the Abrogating and the Abrogated“. In Abu ‘Ubayd’s (d. 228 A.H.) work, from which as-Suyuti quotes this, it is the first narration in the chapter titled, “[About] what all was abrogated from the Qur’an after revelation and is not put in the Masahif.” Essentially, what was abrogated was forgotten, as the Qur’aan itself states:

“We do not abrogate a verse or cause it to be forgotten except that We bring forth [one] better than it or similar to it. Do you not know that Allah is over all things competent?” – Qur’aan 2:106.

Shahab ud-Deen al-Alusi’s (d. 1270 A.H.) comment helps explain the issue:

أجمعوا على عدم وقوع النقص فيما تواتر قرآنا كما هو موجود بين الدفتين اليوم، نعم أسقط زمن الصديق ما لم يتواتر وما نسخت تلاوته … وعليه يحمل ما رواه أبو عبيد عن ابن عمر قال: لا يقولن أحدكم قد أخذت القرآن كله وما يدريه ما كله قد ذهب منه قرآن كثير ولكن ليقل قد أخذت منه ما ظهر

“Verily they (i.e. people of Sunnah) have agreed on there being no loss in the Qur’an as is continuously reported like we today find between the two bindings. Yes during the time of (Abu Bakr) as-Sidiq the part which was not reported continuously and was (rather) abrogated was dropped (out of the official mushaf)…and to this relates that which is reported by Abu ‘Ubayd from Ibn ‘Umar, who said: ‘None of you should say that he has taken the whole of the Qur’an; how could he know what all of it was! A lot of the Qur’an has passed him by! Let him say instead: I have taken of the Qur’an that which became apparent.’”

As can be seen, Sam Shamoun intentionally removed the narration from its context to make it appear to state that a companion of the Prophet (salallaahu ‘alayhi wa salam) had stated most/ much of the Qur’aan has been lost, when in fact he had confirmed what Allaah has said in the Qur’aan, that the abrogated verses would be made to be forgotten. Therefore, verifying sources is not merely about checking the text for mistranslations or excluded content, it can also be about removing the information from its authorial context. In regards to the translation, the word “MUCH”, it must be understood that this word can be used to mean “less than (what it is being compared to)”. The evidence for this is seen the below narration:

قُلْتُ: يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ، أُوصِي بِمَالِي كُلِّهِ؟ قَالَ: «لاَ» ، قُلْتُ: فَالشَّطْرُ، قَالَ: «لاَ» ، قُلْتُ: الثُّلُثُ، قَالَ: فَالثُّلُثُ، وَالثُّلُثُ كَثِيرٌ

“I said, ‘Should I give two-thirds of my property in charity?’ He said, ‘No.’ I asked, ‘Half?’ He said, ‘No.’ Then he added, ‘One-third, and even one-third is much (wal-thuluthu kathir).’”

Clearly, one third of an amount is not the most of something or “much” of something. This missionary not only removed the narration from its context, he also misrepresented what the narration was saying by being ignorant of its meaning.

Case 4:

This is a much more famous lie, Sam Shamoun in this case, presents a narration and claims that it states that the Prophet Muhammad (salallaahu ‘alayhi wa salam) is a cross dresser:

Narrated by Ismail, narrated by his brother, narrated by Sulaiman, narrated by Hisham Ibn Urwah, narrated by his father, narrated by Aisha who related that the wives of the prophet were divided into two groups. One group consisted of Aisha, Hafsa, Safiya and Sawdah while the other group consisted of Um Salamah and the rest of the women that belonged to the prophet. The Muslims had learned of the great love that the prophet had for Aisha so that if one of them had a gift he desired to give to the prophet, he would delay giving it until the prophet came to Aisha’s house. Then the group who sided with Um Salamah came to Um Salamah and asked her to tell the prophet that he should command the people that if any of them had a gift to give to the prophet, they should give it him in whatever house of his wives the prophet was in at the time. So Um Salamah went and talked with the prophet but he did not respond to her. When the group asked her what the prophet said she told them that he did not respond. So they asked her to go talk to him again until he responds… then the prophet said to her, “Do not hurt me with Aisha, for the inspiration did not come upon when I was (wearing) A WOMAN’S CLOTHES (Thowb) EXCEPT THAT OF AISHA.” (Source- http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?hnum=2393&doc=0)

He provides the source in Arabic and then translates it himself. However, Sam Shamoun does not speak the Arabic language, nor is he capable of reading it, so one does need to ask how he was able to translate something from a language he is ignorant of. The portion of the hadeeth we are focusing on is where he translates “thawb”, as “woman’s clothes”:

لَا تُؤْذِينِي فِي عَائِشَةَ فَإِنَّ الْوَحْيَ لَمْ يَأْتِنِي وَأَنَا فِي ثَوْبِ امْرَأَةٍ إِلَّا عَائِشَةَ

The correct rendition of this portion of the narration should read:

“Do not hurt me regarding Aisha, as the Divine Inspirations do not come to me when I am in the [thawb]cloth (i.e. blanket) of any of wives except [in that of] Aisha.” – Sahih Bukhari, Hadith 2393.

This translation of  “thawb“, can be clarified by a similar narration which reads:

لَا تُؤْذِينِي فِي عَائِشَةَ فَإِنَّهُ وَاللَّهِ مَا نَزَلَ عَلَيَّ الْوَحْيُ وَأَنَا فِي لِحَافِ امْرَأَةٍ مِنْكُنَّ غَيْرِهَا

“Don’t trouble me regarding ‘Aisha, for by Allah, the Divine Inspiration never came to me while I was under the blanket of any woman amongst you except her.” – Sahih Bukhari, Hadith 3491.

The word “blanket”, being “lihaaf” is quite clear in its meaning. One needs to ask Sam Shamoun how he arrived at such an incorrect and outlandish translation, and if it was mistaken, why does he insist it is accurate despite the evidences to the contrary?

Case 5:

Commenting on the phrase:

(قال: قد زعم ذلك زيد) in Sahih Bukhari Hadith 3787.

Muhammad Asad writes in “Sahih al-Bukhari- The Early Years of Islam“, (Gibraltar: Dar al-Andalus, 1981), page 109:

In the French version of the Sahih by Houdas and Marcais (vol.III, 5 in two places) we find the ridiculous translation: “C’est Zeid qui pretend cela” (“It is Zayd who pretends this”) – thus twisting Ibn Abi Laylah’s answer into a discrediting criticism of the authenticity of this narration. The French translators were evidently not aware of the fact that the primary meaning of za’ma is equivalent to qala (“he said”); cf. Lisan al-‘Arab XV, 156.

Conclusion

I have demonstrated several forms of misrepresentation of Islamic quotes and references by contemporary and previous missionaries and Orientalists. Some of the forms we have noted are listed as the following:

  1. Mistranslating a term/ word.
  2. Excluding a portion of the original text.
  3. Misrepresenting a quote by removing it from its context.
  4. Providing an Arabic source but self translating and incorrectly claiming that the translation is authentic.

These are very serious attempts at distorting Islamic academic sources by Christian missionaries and Orientalists. Therefore, the command of Allaah ta ‘aala in Surah 49, verse 6 should be taken seriously, very seriously. The apprehension of Muslims towards the quotes and references by polemicists is not unwarranted as the previous examples have illustrated that this manipulation of the quotes and references is a common pattern of behaviour. With this being noted, if the party entering into a discussion with you on Islamic information does not wish to verify the source or the content, then unless they do so – the Muslim should not continue the discussion. We must be careful and use our discretion in giving audience to those who are unable to maintain basic academic standards.

In my own experience with a zealot missionary, Darren Amos of the UK, he quoted a book for me entitled “al-Kitab”. I asked him, who was the author of al-Kitab or if he even knew that the book title meant. He refused to comment on the quote and its fictitious citation and instead claimed I was evading discussing the topic. I did not relent, I pressed for the validation of the reference and eventually he discontinued the discourse. I encourage my Muslim brothers and sisters to be firm in their criticism of sources, if we do not, the missionaries will gladly invent quotes as they wish without any guilt whatsoever, for as Paul states, “But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice.” – Philippians 1:18.

I would like to thank Br. Waqar for providing me with the references and examples of distortion by missionaries and Orientalists. I have listed his corpus of writings below, as they relate to the claims made above. I highly recommend reading his extensive and scholastic refutations to missionary polemics. May Allaah ta ‘aala reward him for his efforts, Ameen.

Sources:

and Allaah knows best.

Nabeel Qureshi Questioned…

Now, this man who goes by the name ‘Radical Moderate’ gives cash to the Christian hate preacher, David Wood, who nudged Nabeel Qureshi towards Christianity. Here’s his anti-Muslim comment that he sent to me via email in which he rejoices in the death of Muslims and hopes for more:

“But Muslim terrorists blowing up other Muslim terrorists using homicide bombers is Manna from heaven. Lets hope that trend continues.” – Radical Moderate (minion of David Wood).

 

I understand Dr Nabeel Qureshi didn’t make this comment and nor does he have any control over those who have followed/supported him in the past but it’s really worrying that Nabeel has never gone on public record to disassociate himself with his former associates who are effectively radicalised hate-preachers against Muslims.

The comment above is coming from somebody who has informed me that he has committed serious amounts of money to Nabeel Qureshi’s hate preacher friend, David Wood. As David and Nabeel worked together in the past, it’s not unreasonable to imagine some of that money went to Nabeel Qureshi. How does Nabeel feel about the possibility of having received cash from such hate-filled supporters? How does Nabeel feel about having teamed up with radicalised Christian hate preachers in the form of David Wood and Sam Shamoun. How does Nabeel Qureshi feel knowing that his former colleague Negeen Mayel denounced his best friend as self radicalised?

This is something Nabeel Qureshi needs to look into. Is it odd that he has never made a statement on his radicalised Christian hate-preacher associates? Never denounced the hate-filled lies and mockery that his associates have spewed in the direction of Muslims? Never added to his former colleague’s rejection of his radicalised Christian hate preacher friends?

Mark Bennet Inciting Deceit for Popularity

In the below screenshot from the still public profile of Christian extremist and mouth piece of one Sam Shamoun, Mark Bennet (who thrives off of stealing personal photos of people and publishing sexual scenarios, using the photos he stole), we can see the claim of a Christian woman. This Christian, states that I ran away from a debate and I am a coward, because I refused to debate a team of Christian apologists willing to fly to my home country of Trinidad and Tobago. To demonstrate the wicked and deceitful nature of these specific Christian extremists, I give you the entire chat log from Facebook with said woman. I invite Miss Jane Kim to publish the chat log on Mark’s website to validate the chat log below. Nothing has been edited or removed. This is the fruit of the Holy Spirit among Christians, inventing claims and lying for popularity and donation monies.

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Let’s focus on this one woman’s claim, lauded by Mark Bennet and his gang of sexually deviant extremists (see this article and this other article):

 

  • 28 December 2012
  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 17:44

    Facebook User

    Hello Ijaz, My name is Kim and I have been reading your posting and thought it would be fabulous if you would be willing to be open for perhaps a Christian debate? If you are open for the idea, please let me know? Thank you so much for your consideration, Kim

  • Ijaz Ahmad
    28/12/2012 18:48

    Ijaz Ahmad

    Hi Kim,

    I’m always open for debate.

  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 18:55

    Facebook User

    Oh that is wonderful. Would you be open to a video debate perhaps one on Skype or Paltalk which also has Video Rooms?

  • Ijaz Ahmad
    28/12/2012 19:17

    Ijaz Ahmad

    My upcoming debate is on paltalk, audio only though.

  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 19:18

    Facebook User

    Would you be interested in setting up a Video debate perhaps in 30-90 out?

  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 19:25

    Facebook User

    (sorry I meant to say 30-90 days out)?

  • Ijaz Ahmad
    28/12/2012 19:32

    Ijaz Ahmad

    with whom? You?

  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 19:43

    Facebook User

    No, not me but perhaps a friend of mine from India

  • Ijaz Ahmad
    28/12/2012 19:50

    Ijaz Ahmad

    I don’t usually debate any Tom, Dick and Harry that comes along, have your friend contact me and I’d see if they’re up to mark.

  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 20:07

    Facebook User

    Oh, I see, well I do not want to bother him if you say no, so here take a look at his credentials before I mention it to him and let me know what you think and what your timeframe looks like, ok?He is part of the Sakshi team and perhaps if you agree I can arrange for the debate. The following is their link, but the man speaking is not my friend. Kindly, Kim

    http://www.sakshitimes.net/blog/2008/12/25/debate-invitation/

    This attachment may have been removed or the person who shared it may not have permission to share it with you.
  • Ijaz Ahmad
    28/12/2012 20:08

    Ijaz Ahmad

    I know about Sakshi, they won’t debate me. You are free to try and arrange it though.

  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 20:09

    Facebook User

    Consider it arranged….my friend said he would love to debate you at least 30 days out.

  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 20:11

    Facebook User

    Why dont you name the date and I will arrange the room through Paltalk Video….here are some topics would any of these interest you? 1. Crucifixion of Jesus Christ and Death of Muhammad

     

    2. Sin and Salvation in the Bible and the Quran

     

    3. Is Muhammad the prophet mentioned in the Bible (Looks one sided, but couldn’t think how to make this two sided)

     

    4. Yahweh of the Bible or Allah of the Quran

     

    5. Corrupted or not – Quran and the Bible

     

    6. Trinity of the Bible or Tawheed of the Quran

     

    7. Islam or Christianity, which is the true religion of peace

     

    8. Jesus of the Bible or Muhammad of the Islam, which is the best example for humanity

  • Ijaz Ahmad
    28/12/2012 20:12

    Ijaz Ahmad

    £5.

    * number 5

  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 20:12

    Facebook User

    Or…Prophethood of Muhammad and Apostleship of Paul.

    ok

  • Ijaz Ahmad
    28/12/2012 20:12

    Ijaz Ahmad

    As I said, I don’t do video, only audio.

    They can be on video, but I prefer to remain speaking only on audio.

  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 20:14

    Facebook User

    He only does video…..since on audio what usually occurs is one simply googles, researches, others can be feeding info as well as scripts are read.

  • Ijaz Ahmad
    28/12/2012 20:14

    Ijaz Ahmad

    I only do audio for the sake of my identity.

    Those are his reasons for video only? LOL

  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 20:15

    Facebook User

    Oh comeon, we are never commanded under the New Covenant never to harm anyone

  • Ijaz Ahmad
    28/12/2012 20:15

    Ijaz Ahmad

    Sorry, all of my debates are audio only, no one knows my face, real name etc. I keep it that way because of my age as well.

  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 20:15

    Facebook User

    Anyone could debate on audio while others are feeding the answers one would simply read off

  • Ijaz Ahmad
    28/12/2012 20:16

    Ijaz Ahmad

    You think being on video will prevent Sakshi members from not helping each other? You can see the person, not his computer screen. That’s some weird logic.

  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 20:17

    Facebook User

    Most well-known Muslim Apologists debate live even

  • Ijaz Ahmad
    28/12/2012 20:17

    Ijaz Ahmad

    Most well known Muslim apologists don’t debate on Paltalk either

  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 20:18

    Facebook User

    There is no need to live in fear, perhaps other Muslims will benefit from seeing your boldness and be encouraged to become an apologist for your faith as well

    Paltalk is simply a convenient forum for those in separate countries

  • Ijaz Ahmad
    28/12/2012 20:18

    Ijaz Ahmad

    This is not about living in fear This is about keeping my life private and protecting my identity as a young adult from victimization in a Christian country.

  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 20:19

    Facebook User

    Are you speaking of India or Trinidad?

  • Ijaz Ahmad
    28/12/2012 20:19

    Ijaz Ahmad

    Plus your logic doesn’t add up. Seeing the person isn’t what matters, because they could be on google and various other websites and you’d never know, because all you’re seeing is the person.

    Trinidad.

  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 20:21

    Facebook User

    Yes, but as we are able to view Deedat and Zakir Naik in person and one’s passion can really be felt as oppossed to reading emotionless

  • Ijaz Ahmad
    28/12/2012 20:22

    Ijaz Ahmad

    Plus, in my experience, having two cams running at once, as well with voice chat on Paltalk deteriorates the connection horribly, hence why people normally go for audio.

    The bar is set, if Sam Shamoun, Anthony Rogers and other well known Christian apologists can debate audio only as I do, I don’t see why Sakshi can’t.

    Too much fluff and little substance.

  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 20:23

    Facebook User

    I have some other forums we can use such as gotomeeting, or Skype Premium. Welll my dear, I must run now, but if you change your mind, please let me know and I will speak to him about this. Thank you so much for your consideration and may peace and blessings be upon you! Kindly, Kim

  • Ijaz Ahmad
    28/12/2012 20:24

    Ijaz Ahmad

    I’ve spent enough time discussing this, I have work to continue. Message me when you have something in concrete.

  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 20:24

    Facebook User

    Thank you Ijaz!

  • Facebook User
    28/12/2012 20:44

    Facebook User

    Ijaz aside from the video debates, my friend also does face to face debates.

  • 29 December 2012
  • Facebook User
    29/12/2012 10:09

    Facebook User

    Ijaz, I discussed this possible debate with Sakshi, and they have never recd any debate invite from you. They have a strict debate criterion which you can see on http://www.sakshitimes.net/blog/2008/12/25/debate-invitation/. They receive many debate invites from boys high on enthusiasm but they typically back off when asked to send a profile. Anycase, if you can send me the correspondence that you sent them, I can ask them to cross check. Further to which I can ask them to respond to your email which you are supposed to have sent them earlier.

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  • Ijaz Ahmad
    29/12/2012 10:11

    Ijaz Ahmad

    Clarify whether or not they’d be willing to an English debate, audio only before I send a request.

    I don’t want to send one and then be told that I began to back out.

  • 29 December 2012
  • Facebook User
    29/12/2012 18:25

    Facebook User

    Dear Ijaz, There were two parts to my email to which you replied to only one part… Sakshi frequently gets claims by wannabes claiming that Sakshi didn’t accept their debate challenge when nothing to that effect was ever extended. Please send me the correspondence which you claim to have been sent to Sakshi… I hope I don’t get the usual “I don’t store email”. They are pretty occupied with their work in India and are very particular about video being a part of the debate… perhaps you can “re-forward” your “earlier correspondence” and work hopefully work it out with them

  • Ijaz Ahmad
    29/12/2012 18:26

    Ijaz Ahmad

    Please see my previous message. I told you >> before << I send, to ask your friend if he would do a audio only debate, as I don’t want to send a proposal and then be accused of backing out.

  • 31 December 2012
  • Facebook User
    31/12/2012 09:44

    Facebook User

    Audio debate is out of the question. Sakshi has debated Dawah groups having a million plus members in a mosque boldly hanging up banners “Quran is not the word of God”, they went there without police protection and just about 20 supporters in the crowd… this in a country (India) which offers a fraction of protection of civil rights such as what you enjoy in the Trinidad… they boldly do their work without any human support or protection nor hiding behind the façade of the Internet… no time for juveniles who cannot stand up boldly for their faith even when they are given full state protection. Comeon Ijaz, you are not a Christian living in Muslim country with the possibility of Islamic death threats. Remember Christians do not have a 9:29 to obey. When Sami Zataari, Shabir Aly, Osama Abdallah, etc can openly criticize Christianity in a “Christian” country without any fear, then you also need to come out of the closet, reject the mythological “islamophobia” and debate openly as your leaders do. If not, do not use Taqiyya trying to gain footage by saying Sakshi won’t debate you. They will, but you must debate out of our closet man to man. Kindly, Kim

  • Ijaz Ahmad
    31/12/2012 10:48

    Ijaz Ahmad

    Hi there Kim!

    Well thank you for proving your stereotyping to be wrong, if Sakshi members among millions of Muslims, can insult them inside of a Masjid and come out with not even a scratch, then you’ve proven your lie of ‘death threats’ and ‘9:29 false interpretation’ to be wrong. Funny how proof by contradiction works, yes?

    Also, there is something you must know, I don’t have any pride, you can accuse me of being like Paul and using Taqiyya, you can accuse me of being scared, heck you can even accuse me of whatever you want, you’re not going to get a reaction from me. You’re a Christian, your motives are clear and your insincerity shines through the façade of ‘kindly organizing a debate’. Your last message clearly demonstrates your lowly intent.

    If Sam Shamoun, Anthony Rogers and even James White, from whom Sakshi steals most of their outdated information from can debate without video, then who does Sakshi think they are? The truth is, they are scared, and they will look for an excuse not to debate, they will create stringent rules and criteria just to make it impossible for a debate to happen

    When they are ready to grow up and don’t need their faces or names to be known for fame and donation money for their private use, let me know.

  • 31 December 2012
  • Facebook User
    31/12/2012 15:16

    Facebook User

    Dear Ijaz, Thanks for your mail. You still have not forwarded the debate invitation you claimed to have sent to Sakshi, when you stated above that you knew of them yet they would not debate with you.

    Perhaps Muslims cannot all be accused of obeying Surah 9:29. There are some like you who may follow Surah 43:88-89, Surah 109 and some may follow Surah 2:190-194 depending on their strength of population. So, it is very much an opportunistic ideology, depending upon one’s commitment to the Quran.

    Blessed Apostle Paul was not a follower of Muhammad to use Taqiyya “being like Paul and using Taqiyya” as you stated.

    Sam Shamoun, James White, etc do not have a closet hidden policy like you do. They may have debated without video due to technical constraints but they have also debated with video and in public square. Debates with Islamic stalwarts were all on video. With your “hide-behind the screen/veil” policy, how can one be sure of your true profile even? How can one be sure that you would not reappear with a changed name in a new website when you are thoroughly discredited in the debate?

    Anyways, we are speaking about Sakshi. They would want to debate with people who can boldly stand up for their own Religion. Why are you insisting on not having a video debate? When you grow up and can stand on your own and debate like a man, please let me know and I will arrange a debate for you with Sakshi.

  • Facebook User
    31/12/2012 15:20

    Facebook User

    Also, My comment about Sakshi debating in front of millions does not imply that the threat is not impending because as we all know fully well, in many countries precautions are often taking when debating live with Muslims such as metal detectors since Islam is the Religion of intolerance. Many have had looming threats from Muslims with the words of the Quran as justification, unlike the absence of any such words from the the New Testament words for the Dispensation of Grace. Kindly, Kim

  • Ijaz Ahmad
    31/12/2012 15:34

    Ijaz Ahmad

    I am sorry you have an overwhelming need to demean others when they do not bow to your whims and desires. You can speak whatever you wish of my religion, my God, my Prophet, you are a Christian, I don’t expect anything better from your ilk.

    You’ve wasted enough of my time Feel free to keep compensating for your own faith crisis by attacking Islam, it won’t change the reality before you.

You cannot reply to this conversation.

[Updated] James White, Shamoun and Friends’ Behaviour

Update:

The owner of the tabloid website claims:

“The difference between me and Paul Williams of course is that my Facebook is in private mode, while PW had his Facebook on public status.”

As of this posting, 8:36 PM (UTC 04:00), the extremist Christian’s page is still public. Lying about himself, for brownie points won’t work:

cc-2014-markbennett-lies

 

As we can clearly see, I am not his friend on Facebook and as of right now, his profile remains public, not private as he claims. I think this should be a lesson to Christian extremists, lying is a sin. Here we can see Sam Shamoun’s hateful and spiteful comments on his page. I guess this is what James and his gang of miscreants want to hide, but the truth will always show itself.

Original article:

When polemicists are among their friends, their true colors come out. As most of you would remember, I denounced Mr. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries for supporting and promoting a tabloid website that published stolen photographs and posted articles speculating on one person’s sexual tendencies. James took offense that I would not visit such a website, and he refused to denounce his partner in Islamophobia, Sam Shamoun (notorious for threats and insults). As it turns out, the very said owner of that website, on his own Facebook page encourages insults and gossip – the very kind that Sam and James enjoy. Here’s just a snippet of what the owner of said tabloid website encourages:

cc-2014-markbennett-insults

Once again, James’ and Sam’s friends have an addiction to involving Muslim speakers in their sexual fantasies. In fact, one of the Christian extremists in this photo, even claims he records everything I say and do – in the real world, we call this stalking. This is the same individual who steals photos off of Muslims’ pages and uses those photos to invent sexual stories about Muslims. Here, we can see one of these Christian extremists, engaging in his zoophilia fantasies by listening to a recording of my voice.

I was also informed that one of these Christians suggests that referring to Christianity as Pauline Christianity, sees such a labeling as an insult. It may then shock this extremist to read any classical Christian or contemporary scholastic works on Christianity by Christians which use this term constantly. If he has an issue with such a term, one has to ask what works of his own scholars he is using. I cannot blame him for his anger at being linked to the Apostle Paul, or his strand of Christianity, it would cause me anger as well. These extremists are commenting under an edited version of a discussion I had with Shamoun. On James’ program, I requested that Shamoun release the unedited version – he refused. He mentioned that side comments were removed, when I asked if by side comments he meant insults and curses, I received no reply and Sam left. Absolutely incredulous and purely Christian behaviour.

We pray and ask that God protects us from the fantasies and sexual perversions of these Christian extremists.

and God knows best.

Dividing Line After Thoughts

I’ve been asked by several persons who listened to the webcast of Dividing Line to give a few comments on my thoughts of the events which occurred during the show. Personally, I don’t have much to say about the discussion, but I’m willing to give a little background and explain a few details.

Sheikh Awal is currently in Trinidad and Tobago, my home country. He’s here to give a few workshops and lectures. I met him on Wednesday night, which was unplanned to be honest until a chance call earlier in the day. In the end, I got a chance interview with him. It’s about 7 minutes long and we didn’t have time to discuss much, so he summarized for the public consumption, the events which led up to the cancellation of his debate with James White.

I posted the interview and sometime Thursday evening, I got an email from James indicating he’d be playing the interview on his show and declaring debate challenges to the both of us. It was at that time I decided to call in. James has a very unfortunate habit of discussing persons without them being present. Case in point, he argues against Shaykh Deedat quite often. That’s an easy argument, the Shaykh is dead, he can no longer respond thus James can argue what he wants, how he wants – he won’t be getting a response from Shaykh Deedat. That’s obviously something I find quite distasteful, quite incredulous. In calling in, I decided I would speak my mind as clearly as I could on this aspect of James’ ministerial methodology.

I called the Dividing Line twice, the first time it was to indicate to Richard (of AO Min) that I would be calling in after the interview had aired to discuss with James his disagreements. I called again when I realised James was taking a bit too long to get to the crux of the interview, and waited about 7 minutes until my credit on my phone was depleted. Richard called me back and said they’d put me live when James was ready to have me on. Doubts occurred as the hour mark drew close, for if his show runs for one hour, how could they have me on it after their airing time was complete? Fortunately they called me on the hour’s mark and that’s when our chat began.

James’ speaking methodology is different to mines. I’m often laid back and non-confrontational, but James is the opposite. He’s a dominating speaker, a confident speaker. In order to match his tone, his approach and his accusations, I also had to attempt to dominate the conversation and steer it in a mutually beneficial direction, as opposed to James speaking over me. That worked brilliantly, as in the end, I got my say in and even got him to bring Shamoun on the air for a solid few minutes of heated one on one discussion and debate. What really pleased me though was their inability to get me to discredit any of my comrades, namely Br. Snow and Br. Awal. Conversely, James ensured that he distanced himself from the antics of Wood and Shamoun, even criticising them on air – hopefully Br. Snow will produce clips of this for his YouTube channel to aid in our back and forths with Shamoun and company.

What I was most content with, was being able to get Sheikh Awal’s debate published within one day of the interview. This was the goal and praise be to God, it was achieved in a timely manner, without much difficulty. In the end though, I possibly also got a free book out of it, as James agreed to send me a copy of his book, “The Forgotten Trinity”. However, he has failed to reply to my email in my request for an update in receiving this book. I’ll consider it for now that he is busy and as such, he’ll eventually reply to it and send me the book which I’ve been unable to access otherwise as I’d honestly like to read it.

I’d like to thank James for setting everything up and I look forward to our debate in London. Thanks for watching/ listening to the discussion, I hope that good comes from these inter-faith dialogues. Here’s the link to the show, I call in about the hour mark.

and God knows best.

What does Allah’s “Salaah” mean?

This query was brought to my attention by Anthony Rogers (see more information about him here and here), who quoted a comment by Sam Shamoun, the comment is:

You know full well what the actual position is but still, like your prophet did before you, you can’t help but deliberately misrepresent it. The position which you once claimed to have believed is that Jesus is God in essence and distinct from God the Father. Therefore, Jesus is praying to God the FATHER, not himself.

Let’s respond to this really quickly. Sam is saying that Jesus is not praying to himself, but Jesus the God is praying to the Father the God. So God is praying to God. So God who is praying to God, is not praying to God (himself) but to another God. How does one God pray to another God? How is this even Monotheistic? In order to deceive himself and distract Christians, he attempted to misrepresent Islamic beliefs:

However, speaking of a bizarre religion, you don’t get anymore bizarre than your [insult snipped] praying to himself!

They are those on whom are the prayers (salawatun) from their Lord and mercy (rahmatun), and it is they who are the guided-ones. S. 2:157

He it is who prays (yusallee) for you and His angels too, to bring you forth out of the darkness into the light, for He is merciful to the believers. S. 33:43 Palmer

Verily, God and His angels pray (yusalloona) for the prophet. O ye who believe! pray for him (salloo) and salute him with a salutation! S. 33:56 Palmer

The hadith reports also mention Allah praying for people:
1387. Abu Umama reported that the Messenger of Allah said, “Allah AND His angels AND the people of the heavens AND the earth, EVEN the ants in their rocks AND the fish, PRAY for blessings on those who teach people good.” [at-Tirmidhi] (Aisha Bewley, Riyad as-Salihin (The Meadows of the Righteous), Book of Knowledge, 241. Chapter: the excellence of knowledge; bold, capital and italic emphasis ours)

And here is an article where I discuss this issue more in-depth and refute the lame attempt by your fellow Muhammadan-turned apostate-turned Muhammadan-turned apostate again-turned Muhammadan one more time Ibn Unaware: [link snipped]

So perhaps you can be so kind and answer my questions. To whom does your deity pray when he joins the angels in praying for Muhammad and so-called believers? Since the angels are obviously praying to Allah does this mean that Allah is also praying to himself?

Bizarre indeed!

I didn’t think I needed to mention this, but words have context. Context is defined as, “The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.”[1] As a toddler, when one is taught how to read, we learn that words, based on their context, affects their meaning. For our purposes, this phenomena is referred to as relational nouns, one study on its uses mentions:

Relational nouns have some commonalities with verbs  and prepositions, in that their meanings are centered around  extrinsic relations with other concepts. Relational nouns are  also similar to verbs in that they are semantically  unsaturated (i.e., they take arguments). A relational noun  takes an argument (often not obligatory) and assigns a  thematic role.[2]

Now, it’s quite obvious I don’t expect someone of the likes of Sam Shamoun to make sense of these things. For a person to not know that words have variant meanings dependent on context, it’s therefore understandable that he’d be intellectually stunted and as a consequence, misrepresent what the Qur’aan or Ahadeeth say. One example of relational nouns is the word ‘Seerah‘, outside of Islamic delimitations it means ‘story, history‘, but when Islamically used, it refers to the Prophet’s (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) biography. Surely even someone with the level of ineptitude of Shamoun can grasp this. To cater for his level of understanding, we can even use English examples:
  1. The space of the car was huge.
  2. The car went into space.
In the above example, there are two similar nouns, ‘car‘ and ‘space‘, but they have two completely different meanings. Whereas the meaning of ‘car‘ is the same, the other noun, ‘space‘, although its the same word, due to its context, it has two completely different meanings. The meaning of the noun space, is therefore, relational. Its meaning is relative. This is an easy example. Given what we’ve just learned, it is therefore simple to understand that the word ‘Salaah’ has a relational meaning, dependent upon the noun it is used upon. While it does mean prayer in the conventional sense when referring to any creation of God, most usually mankind and Jinn, when it is used in relation to God, it has a totally variant meaning. We’ll use one of Sam’s quoted verses, 33:43 to illustrate this relational meaning:

(He is such that He and His angels send blessings to you), It means that when you have become used to dhikrullah in abundance and have become regular in recounting the perfections of Allah morning and evening, Allah would honor you and respect you by bestowing His Blessings and by the angels supplicating for you.

The word ‘Salah’ has been used in this verse for Allah Ta’ala as well as for the angels but the applicable meaning are different. For Allah it means His bestowing blessings and for angels who have no volition on their own, it means their supplication to Allah to bestow His blessings.

Sayydina Ibn ‘Abbas (may Allah be pleased with him) has stated that Salah from Allah is a blessing, from angels it is prayer for forgiveness and from humans it is supplication. The word Salah carries all the three meanings.

(Their greeting, the Day they will meet Him, will be, “Salam” – 33:44). This is the explanation of the Salah that is sent to believers from Allah.[3]

This therefore clarifies the misconception that God ‘prays’ like humans. The source of this misconception is due to Sam Shamoun’s lack of grammatical study, he is uneducated in terms of the English language and the Arabic language, thus technical constructs based on language study escapes his realm of education. Although common to us, for those of us who took language courses at the High School and University Level, Sam did not have these opportunities, so we should not be surprised at his ignorance.
He’s also committed a classical exegetical fallacy and a logical fallacy. The exegetical fallacy would be the, “Reading Between the Lines Fallacy”, Professor William D. Barrick explains:

This fallacy falls into the category of logical fallacies that Carson discusses in Exegetical  Fallacies. The unwarranted associative fallacy “occurs when a word or phrase triggers off an associated idea, concept, or experience that bears no close relation to the text at hand, yet is used to interpret the text.[4]

Recall that Sam is a Trinitarian Christian, in his mind, there is no difference between relational nouns in terms of God and man, since his God is a man. Whereas for us who believe in monotheism, God is not a man and therefore the terms that apply to God will have distinct meanings from those that apply to mankind. The other fallacy is the Tu Quoque fallacy, essentially the kindergarten argument of ‘you too’. Since he believes God is a man who prays to God, he’s trying to force his belief upon the Islamic faith, however in doing so, he abandons all sense of reasoning, education and dignity.

We pray that Shamoun realises his lack of education and seeks to attend classes so as not to humiliate himself once more.

and Allaah knows best.

[1] – “Context“, The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language.
[2] – “Context Sensitivity of Relational Nouns“, Asmuth, J. & Gentner, D. (2005).
[3] – “Qur’aan 33:43“, Tafsir Maari’ful Qur’aan, Mufti Muhammad Shafi, page 182.
[4] – “Exegetical Fallacies“, Prof. William D. Barrick.
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