Tag Archives: jonathan mclatchie

Missionary Mishap: Scholar Schools McLatchie

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Have you ever had a scholar who specializes in your field of interest completely discredit your grasp of the field entirely? I haven’t, most people haven’t, but Jonathan McLatchie has.

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Here’s the scholar’s credentials as of 2014. Five pages worth of academic qualifications spanning multiple disciplines including Judaeo-Christian theology, history and  Biblical languages. After having explained who he was and stating his credentials, none of which Jonathan can match,  I was shocked to see that Jonathan still couldn’t figure out why a scholar with more academic credentials and study would consider Jonathan to be unqualified. Perhaps Jonathan can let us know what his theological qualifications are, how many Biblical languages he knows and how many classes at University he’s taught on Islam and Judaeo-Christianity.

Scholarship, Jonathan, has deemed you totally unqualified…and it isn’t the first time either.

and God knows best.

Missionary Mishap: Steven Tilley & Vladmir Susic

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It’s that time of the day again! Steven and Vladmir are friends of Sam Shamoun and Jonathan McLatchie. Most people would remember Vladmir from the several hour videos that him and Jonathan have made for YouTube. In the below discussion, Steven Tilley, a Christian missionary, posts a photo from a book claiming that this shows the Qur’an has been “tampered with”. Changes in the way vowels have been represented is not tampering, but the development of the written text to make it easier to read, in this case, known as orthography. A common example is of “sonne” and “son” (others include “mi” and “my”, “saule” and “soul”, “gode” and “good)”, the way the written language represents the word has changed, but it carries the same pronunciation and the same meaning. Nothing more, nothing less. So, I point this out to Steven. He immediately replies that I’m wrong. Then his friend and colleague, Vladmir comes along to say that I’ll be ripped to shreds by Steven on this topic.

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I didn’t recognize the book at first, so I asked him what the name of it was. After a minute of posting that question, I remembered the name and found the book that the photo was taken of. Steven never bothered to let us know the name of the book, and it is most likely he’d never do that for a very good reason. That reason? The very photo he posted was taken from the chapter on….you guessed it…..orthography!

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So what does Steven decide to do when he’s been caught lying? Well he apologized, corrected himself and his friend Vladmir did the same. Sorry, I got that wrong, Steven did none of those things and decided to do the following:

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After being caught lying, and having quoted a paragraph from the book by Keith Small, literally mentioning the word, “orthographic”, he decides to delete the entire post and pretend like it never happened. Fortunately for Steven and Vladmir, I enjoy conversations like these and knowing that they are influenced by the characters of Sam Shamoun and Jonathan McLatchie, they’d never correct themselves. This once again shows that these missionaries know very little about the topics they “discuss” and it is more about pride than it is about knowing the truth.

and God knows best!

Christian Polemicists Declare Trinity Channel Heretical

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Some would remember that a few months or so ago, Sam Shamoun used to hold shows and debates on the Trinity/ ABN Channel. At some point both him and David Wood stopped appearing on the channel. David in an email indicated it was because he could no longer work with the unprofessional Christian staff of the channel and also could not tolerate the ignorant Christian audience of the channel. In an email dated September 15th, 2105 he says:

Also, why would we take callers in the middle of such short debates? Was this your idea, or did Haifa suggest it? I see multiple problems here. First, we’re not in the studio, and I anticipate all kinds of technical difficulties arising. (We often have technical difficulties with questions in the studio, so I can’t imagine things going smoothly with everything happening somewhere else.) The more complicated the set-up, the more problems are going to slip in to derail the debates. Second, the vast majority of viewers would rather listen to us address a topic than a questioner asking us questions. It would be nice if all callers asked relevant, probing questions, but they won’t. Good questions will be only a fraction of the actual questions we get. People will call in with insults, they will start yelling and we’ll have to cut them, and most of the questions will be completely irrelevant to the topics. That’s just what happens when phone lines are opened for anyone to call in.

In another email on the same date he also said:

As for ABN, I’ve been working with them for years, but I’m at the end of my rope. I simply want to get these debates out of the way so that I don’t have to deal with this network ever again. (Yes, name redacted, years of working with ABN allows us to be frank with each other, and too many frustrating experiences have taken away any inclination I have to soften my words. This is why there’s a need to part ways. We simply don’t work well together and can’t agree on anything. I’m to the point where I get a miserable, sinking feeling whenever I’m contacted by ABN, because I know it’s going to ruin my day.)

Today, Sam has tried to create another excuse as to why the TV station no longer wanted to work with Sam and David, he says on Facebook:

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Here’s the problem, at the time David and Sam stopped appearing on the Trinity/ ABN Channel, David sent out numerous emails claiming that he was upset, angry and frustrated with both the ignorant and unprofessional staff at the station, as well as with the Christian viewers who supported him, calling in and insulting guests. Sam, some ten months later in an attempt to deflect the personal differences that led them to part from the Christian polemics TV station, instead blames his lack of appearances due to the “false Gospel” message that the station is now sharing, some ten months later. In other words, Sam is blaming something that happened yesterday, ten months after he was booted from the station due to personal conflicts with the staff, as the reason for why he no longer appeared on the station ten months ago. That simply does not make sense for anyone who spends more than a few seconds to contemplate the claims made.

All in all, both Sam and David had seriously negative and angry views about the station and their viewership, and found themselves no longer having an amicable relationship with the TV station’s staff. They had no public excuse at that time to mask the personal conflicts that led to their leaving of the station so they remained silent until they could use another excuse to explain their glaring absence. Today, that excuse came in the form of the Trinity Station endorsing a heretical form of Christianity with Joel Osteen at its head. Thus, the issue presents itself that the Trinity Channel is now preaching a brand of Christianity that Sam and company fundamentally view as heretical. An entire TV station converted to a heretical form of Christianity and Sam Shamoun, who views himself as a great Christian teacher and apologist, who has the Spirit of God allegedly inside him, could not convince his own Christians to remain in their faith.

The question thus begs itself, if people like Sam Shamoun, David Wood and their student Jonathan McLatchie who consider themselves educated and guided by the Holy Spirit cannot save their own Christian brothers and sisters from following what they consider to be heretical and false Gospels, then why don’t they focus on the Christian community rather than on Islam? It means to say that they cannot save their own Christians, and so they need to find some other way to keep themselves relevant, which is to deflect from the dire situation they are in within the Christian community and in so doing are using Islam as a distraction from the growing apostasies in their own Christian communities. Sam and David spent years preaching on the Trinity/ ABN Channel, only for the channel and its viewers to begin preaching what they call a false Gospel.

Clearly there is a problem with Christianity, if its “greatest” and most “popular” apologists cannot save their fellow Christians from abandoning their faith en masse.

and God knows best.

Calling Jonathan McLatchie to a Higher Standard

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Jonathan has just released another article about me, and I’m honestly flummoxed with respect to his opening few words. Polemicists like Jonathan, have always claimed that Muslims do not understand the Trinity (well, who does?), and so we should rely on the Christian community for the explanation of this doctrine. Therefore it causes me concern that when Muslims do seek counsel from the Christian community about the statements of their polemicists about the Trinity, we are regarded as promoting division and discord. If we don’t ask them about the Trinity, it’s because we’re allegedly ignoring what they say and when we do ask them, it’s because we allegedly want to sow discord amongst them.

I’m okay with Jonathan making false claims about me, because I understand that he’s upset that during a discussion about Jonathan’s heretical ideas about the Trinity one of his close friends denounced his views as “not orthodox”. One can see that video here:

Here’s the funny thing about Jonathan and his friend, Jonathan’s friend is now attempting to backtrack on his statements after putting Jonathan into hot water. Unfortunately, in a poor attempt to save face, Jonathan falsified comments about his friend, here is one such example:

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Here’s the thing though, I did meet Jonathan yesterday, and I did play the clip for him up until 1 minute after the sound bite in the video ends. Nowhere in that 1 minute after the sound bite above does his friend Rudolph ever say, “But Jonathan did not say that”. In fact, nowhere in the 36 minutes and 31 seconds Jonathan’s friend and I spoke, did he ever utter such a statement. In fact, the entire conversation is currently circulating and has been circulating among both Muslims and Christians since yesterday, Jonathan was even told he could come to Hyde Park and collect a copy if he wished. What this means, is that in order to save face, Jonathan has lied about his friend Rudolph, and even after hearing the clip himself and never hearing Rudolph ever state “But Jonathan did not say that”, Jonathan continues to claim his friend Rudolph was misrepresented. Simply, what’s going on here is that Jonathan has found himself in a bad position and I do not blame him for going to desperate ends. Jonathan’s very friend is also in a tough position and is put between his faith and his friend. It’s a very uncomfortable position for Jonathan, his friends and fellow Christians. The interesting thing though, is that I don’t need a voice recording to show Jonathan that his friend has already publicly criticized him for his heretical views about the Trinity.

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Take note of the above public conversation. Christians are “not quite comfortable” with the claims of Jonathan regarding the Trinity. In fact, his friend Rudolph replies that he agrees, he says, “I agree”. So what do we have now? We have a voice conversation where his friend states clearly that Jonathan’s view were not orthodox as expressed in the video, we have a conversation on Facebook where his friend agrees that he’s uncomfortable with what Jonathan said, and then as a good friend he goes on to correct Jonathan by trying to explain what Jonathan meant to say, as opposed to what he did say. Jonathan tried and fell into error, his friends are in agreement that they’re uncomfortable with what he stated in that video and now they have to try and say what Jonathan didn’t in that video clip in Hyde Park. It’s clearly caused division among them, and that’s why Jonathan blames me in his article. It’s his way of expressing that his friends themselves, have publicly denounced him as being in error.

With respect to his claims about me “misrepresenting” Sam’s article, Jonathan has also changed his position. Yesterday he proclaimed I misquoted Sam. Today, I’ve apparently no longer misquoted but misrepresented Sam. The problem is this, Sam claims the Qur’an makes an error by stating:

They have certainly disbelieved who say, “Allah is the third of three.” And there is no god except one God. – 5:73.

So here’s the problem, for a number of years Sam has claimed that Christians do not teach that God is a third of three. On Sunday, Jonathan claimed in Hyde Park that God was a third of three. So now there’s a conundrum. If as Jonathan said that God in Christianity is a third of three, then it makes Sam Shamoun a liar in his numerous articles claiming the Qur’an is wrong. If Jonathan is wrong and what Sam claimed in his articles is true, then Jonathan is a heretic. Either way, Jonathan has put Sam into hot water and that’s why you see Sam not commenting on the issue but only Jonathan, because once Sam makes a statement one way or the either, he then publicly embarrasses himself and Jonathan. That’s one of the reasons that Sam’s quote was used and why Jonathan had to change his false claim of me misquoting, to me misrepresenting Sam. Jonathan then goes on to say:

Ijaz also, unfortunately, butchered the comments of Dr. James White regarding the meaning of theotetos, translated by the KJV as “godhead” but which White objects to since Godhead is commonly used to refer to the Trinity and the word theotetos is referring to Deity, i.e. to that which makes God God.

Jonathan completely missed the point. I in fact, didn’t touch the comments of Dr. James White, they are unedited and properly cited, this is just another poor attempt at deflection and deception by Jonathan. With respect to the quote itself, I agree with Dr. White, in fact, in the video I published the very quote was used to show that Christians do believe the Godhead is God, is a Deity. Jonathan is so caught up in trying to respond to the trouble he’s found himself in, he doesn’t even recognize when I agree with him. So, uh, thank you Jonathan for demonstrating that you’re simply not paying attention and are merely trying to respond rather than to understand what is being said, your mistake and your haste speaks volumes about your character.

I also do not see why he had to re-explain Dr. White’s words on the Father not being 1/3rd of God. That’s exactly what the quote I used said:

“The Father is not ⅓ of God, the Son ⅓ of God, the Spirit ⅓ of God. Each is fully God, coequal with the others, and that eternally.”

White, James R.. The Forgotten Trinity (p. 27). Baker Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

The quote stands as is, I’m in agreement with what Dr. White said, not in disagreement. That’s exactly why I quoted him in the first place. Now, what Jonathan said next is extremely important to the situation he now finds himself in, he says:

“What I meant is that the Father is a third of the Godhead in the sense…”

Jonathan accepts he made a heretical claim about the Trinity, he distinguishes between what he said in the video, and today by what he currently means. It’s no longer, “what I said…,” but is now, “what I meant…”. Jonathan knows that he screwed up, his friends know that he screwed up, and now the recorded conversations, the recorded Facebook comments, the silence of some of his friends, the criticism from the Christian community and now Jonathan’s lying and falsification of statements all stand against him. Jonathan himself acknowledges that he’s disappointed in himself, that he has to write such articles:

“It disappoints me that I even need to write responses like this.”

I agree Jonathan, we are all disappointed in you, that you need to write such poor articles. We recognize and stand in solidarity with the disappointment you have in yourself. We do call you to a higher standard, so that you can no longer be disappointed in yourself.

and God knows best.

All of God, not one third of God.

Jonathan McLatchie Begs For Do-Over Debate with Mansoor

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After a disappointing and embarrassing encounter with Br. Mansoor, Jonathan McLatchie has challenged Br. Mansoor for a re-do. The following video in its entirety really demonstrated Jonathan’s inability to dialogue and debate under pressure:

This video has cleaned up audio and subtitles to hear the mistakes that Jonathan made:

In this video, both Dr. James White and Jonathan’s friend, Sam Shamoun correct and refute Jonathan’s mistakes about core Christian doctrines:

Unfortunately Jonathan claimed that fellow Christians were in agreement with him, and that he did not make heretical claims about the Trinity, which is contradicted in this conversation I had with his friend, Rudolph Bushoff:

After suffering such a humiliating debate defeat against Br. Mansoor, Jonathan is begging and pleading for another turn, this is Br. Mansoor’s response to him:

It appears that Jonathan Mclatchie had an unpleasant experience at Speakers’ Corner speaking with us (Hamid, me and Paul). He wishes for a second chance. He has challenged me openly for a debate. Needless to say that I am not interested in public/ formal debates and will have to let this one pass. Perhaps what he should instead do is to answer some of the points already made in our brief exchange at Speakers’ Corner to the wider Christian audience who might be reflecting on burning him on the stakes for his unorthodox belief if that were to happen in classical times.

Alternatively, if he is really desperate, I am found visiting most Sundays at Speakers’ Corner where we can continue our friendly discussion there informally, (sitting comfortably on the grass with the Sun shining over us) as the exchanges there can be more fruitful for mutual understanding of each others faith than from a formal debate setting where often it’s all about scoring points, in my opinion.

I can understand that whenever an intellectual exchange takes place on the Christian doctrine of Trinity at Speakers’ Corner, there often seems to be a realisation of a need for a second chance in a different debate setting as appreciated by external audience by the virtue of internet, as if that debate setting will provide somehow a comfort zone where the same points made in the exchange will wash away. As for Jonathan, I did want to continue our discussion at the park a little bit later from the initial exchange, but he was not that keen at all and had instead jumped on the ladder with Jay’s students only to be heckled down badly by the regular hecklers.

Anyways, apologetic Christians should rethink about throwing open challenges to lay Muslims like myself instead of engaging with our scholarly community. Or may be abandon the idea of formally debating our Islamic scholars, especially when even the Muslim laity seems to rock the foundation of the faith of your scholarly community?

and Allah knows best.

Br. Mansoor Stumps McLatchie

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Br. Sarwar of Hyde Park has released one of the most entertaining videos of the year, Br. Mansoor running laps around McLatchie in discussing monotheism in the Bible and the Qur’an. McLatchie’s main line of argumentation was, “…in my debate with Dr. Shabir”. The brothers at Hyde Park were unsure whether McLatchie thought all brown people were the same (given his previous comments about Muslims) and Br. Mansoor had to clarify that he indeed was not Dr. Shabir, several times! Surprise guests include my friends Br. Hamid and Br. Paul of Blogging Theology.

The ending of the video is quite a pleasant one, Jonny becomes increasingly frustrated and angry with being asked to explain his reasoning and beliefs. After seemingly being unable to joust with Br. Mansoor, Jonny decided to storm off mid-discussion. Hilariously enough, after several days, Jonny messaged one of the Muslims in the above video saying he enjoyed the “banter”. He enjoyed it so much, he had to storm off. The Muslims at Hyde Park would like to thank Jonny for coming down and helping them in their da’wah efforts.

and Allah knows best.

Quick Responses to Claims About the Eternal Word of God

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I’ve been busy the past few days and had not noticed that Br. Yahya Snow published an article and created a video about me. The article can be read here and concerns debate challenges and the glib behaviour of some missionaries.Br. Yahya states:

Now I must say, it’s curious to see Jonathan angle for a debate with Yusuf Bux after he intimated Yusuf’s arguments are dated and weak. Admittedly, I do have reservations about some of the arguments that do come out of SA. Nevertheless, the point here is why would Jonathan decide to target Yusuf for a debate while Jonathan continually avoids Ijaz Ahmad’s debate challenges. Ijaz is a hardened apologist and debater who chooses to involve himself in technical discussions about Christian theology – it’s what he specialises in.

You see, Jonathan has come off really poorly in his interactions with experienced Muslim apologists. He struggled in his debate with Shabir Ally and struggled in his debate with Yusuf Ismail. Ijaz Ahmad and myself have corrected him and refuted him on many points over the last few months – at times on some very basic stuff highlighting his inability in dialogue with Muslims who are more experienced and aware apologetically.

We’ve corrected Jonathan McLatchie a number of times, here are some examples:

  1. Jonathan rejected the belief that God in the Bible literally inscribed revelation.
  2. Jonathan argued that Br. Khalid Yasin was a white man.
  3. Jonathan claimed that nowhere in the Qur’an does Allah say: I am God Worship me.
  4. Jonathan forgot how debates work.

I actually have quite a couple more screenshots of never before released mistakes by Jonathan. However, they will not be posted. There’s a difference between correcting a public figure and caricaturing someone, and I do not want to cross that line. On the other hand, Br. Yahya also produced a video with me responding to some missionary claims regarding the speech of God, the preservation of the Qur’an and of Jesus’s nature:

I’m not particularly fond of seeing my name and face mentioned this much. While I am thankful for the efforts many brothers have made, it’s still a bit unsettling to see my face and name everywhere. In this case though, it is a video debate and so there’s no choice but to show my face. I am appreciative of Br. Yahya’s comments regarding me and for the video he’s made. I pray that many can benefit from the work that our little community of Muslim apologists, bloggers and du’at do.

and Allah knows best.

 

Missionary Mishap: Jesus & Doors

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After 2000 years, one internet missionary has finally developed the ultimate argument to prove that Jesus was crucified and eventually resurrected. In a video released today, Jonathan McLatchie presented his argument. I must admit, it is extremely incredible and completely unexpected. It is amazing, that almost no one else has used this proof. Here it is:

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Jonathan goes on to say that, “It is unlikely that John would have invented that.” This is irrefutable proof that Jesus was resurrected. I believe that Jonathan needs to be given a award for such thinking. He is certainly quite amusing. Job well done, Jonny!

and God knows best.

Missionary Mishap: Sam Shamoun’s Cursing Rage

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Tonight I find myself disappointed in the Christian inter-faith community. In my possession is an image of a comment on YouTube by Sam Shamoun. When we speak of good, moral people, we expect them to behave in a certain manner. It is strange to me, that people like Nabeel Qureishi and Jonathan McLatchie endorse and continue to promote Sam as not only a Christian teacher, but as a friend and someone to support. It says a lot about their characters that they consider a man who behaves in such a manner to be someone they endorse and support. That they hold this man on a pedestal, when he behaves and speaks like a thug. Curses more than a drunken sailor. I really need to ask if this is Christian behaviour, if this is the work of the Holy Spirit guiding Sam. It is absolutely a shame that people like Nabeel and Jonathan endorse Sam as someone to learn from and that they endorse his behaviour. We need to ask, where have Jonathan and Nabeel ever condemned Sam’s behaviour, rebuked him for unChristian-like speech, corrected him for his thuggish behaviour? The answer is nowhere, because to them, this is the example of a good Christian, that Sam is a good representation of what Christianity can do to a person. This, is sad.

Note: The image has been censored because of the extreme obscenities and vulgar language used. Curses to the Prophet (salallaahu ‘alayhi wa salam) have been censored, but the language has been left to bear witness of Sam’s character.

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If clicking the image does not open it, click this link to see the Facebook post about it.

Yes, he was arguing with someone and they traded insults. However, as an adult, as a faith leader, he should know to behave in a manner befitting his Christian faith. Is Christ not the one who said to turn the other cheek? Or was he the one who said to behave in an uncouth and obscene manner? I do not hold Sam to be a representative of the Christian faith and I am concerned that people, especially the two mentioned above continue to hold him as such.

and God knows best.

Jonathan McLatchie Flops in South Africa

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Embarrassing. This is the term being used by Christians in response to erratic, untruthful and dishonest claims made by Jonathan McLatchie about his South African events. Despite having the support of his close friend and teacher Sam Shamoun, Jonathan’s events in South Africa have had appallingly small crowds (?) attending those events. One South African speaker, Br. Yusuf Bux, decided to question Jonathan about the size of attendance at his events:

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Jonathan replied with a large figure, 200 people! However, Br. Yusuf Bux responded with a picture that clearly showed roughly 20 people in attendance or less. In questioning Jonathan’s integrity, Br. Yusuf Bux replied as follows:

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Jonathan insisted that the photos were taken at a bad time, however these are photos from two different debates, both showing less than 100 people at either event. Instead of responding with photographic evidence to the contrary, Jonathan insisted that “someone did a headcount”. Unfortunately for Jonathan, the pictures were taken by attendees who confirmed that such numbers from Jonathan are not only imagined, Jonathan was simply lying. Another person who attended the event also replied and confirmed that Jonathan’s numbers were simply made up:

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According to the above eyewitness, the testimonies of both Christians and Muslims, and the photographs of the events, Jonathan is simply making up attendance numbers at will. In fact, Br. Yusuf Ismail has mentioned that there were 40 people at the first event and 70 at the second. No where near the large figures that Jonathan claimed:

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Not only have the events themselves failed to draw in any crowds, attendees from both Islamic and Christian backgrounds have complained that Jonathan’s arguments were not only poor, but he was significantly repetitive, leading to crowds leaving while he was speaking. As seen in this photo below, the room is practically empty while Jonathan is speaking:

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In another event, there are 4-5 more people, but the seats are simply empty while Jonathan is speaking:

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There’s no need to make up numbers Jonathan, the pictures speak for themselves. If anyone would like to submit further pictures of the crowds, send us an email or post them to our Facebook Page.

and Allah knows best.

 

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