Video: Jesus the Christ, Man, God or Both? – Ijaz Ahmad vs CL Edwards

بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ,

Post Debate thoughts:
https://callingchristians.com/2013/01/13/post-debate-remarks/

Debate Information:
https://callingchristians.com/2013/01/12/debate-announcement/

Video:

Feel free to leave your thoughts, suggestions and comments! I’d also like to thank CL Edwards for having the video provided so quickly. The video was taken from his website’s posting.

wa Allaahu ‘Alam!

Post Debate Remarks

بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ,

I began my preparation for this debate by watching Br. Paul Bilal William’s debates on the same topic, as well as Dr. Shabir Ally’s debate. I didn’t finish watching either debate because I became tired of the Christian arguments that were being used. They were identical. They simply went to the New Testament and the rest of the debate devolved into whose interpretation of the New Testament verses was more accurate. I realised that this was the argument that Muslims and Christians have been having for 1434 years. Whose interpretation of the same verses was more valid. After seeing this I decided that if I am to debate this topic, I would refuse to carry on this archaic tradition. It was time for something new. There are only two sources for which my opponent could have appealed to; the New Testament and the Old Testament. From this, my aim therefore was to negate the use of the New Testament, relegate my opponent to using the Old Testament and when he tried to use it, refute his claims and leave him without a foundation upon which to stand. In other words, my aim was to render my opponent as a headless chicken.

My method was as such:

  1. To be objective in our discussion we need to go to the primary source which mentions a Messiah.
  2. Hence any text after the Messiah could not be utilized if we are to be honest; thus negating both the Qur’aan and the New Testament.
  3. Ask my opponent where the Messiah is said to be YHWH or where YHWH is said to be the Messiah in the Old Testament; since neither can be found in the Old Testament, my opponent could no longer use it.

It was my intention therefore to create such a simple methodology, that by negating any foundation for my opponent to argue upon, he would be dumbfounded, confused and make horrendous mistakes. As Allaah ta ‘aala willed, it was as exactly as I planned. My opponent began his arguments with appealing to the New Testament, then by affirming the Ecumenical Creeds and lastly by placing the New Testament Christological interpretations into Old Testament verses. From the get go he fell into my hands and I enjoyed it. At one point I got bored and began shopping on Amazon and talking with Br. Nazam from London. I even commented on a few Facebook statuses. It was absolutely hilarious to hear my opponent’s first rebuttal.

Real talk, straight up, CL was dumbfounded. He cautiously took the mic and failed to use all of his time. All he did was claim that in my opening statement I did not give my rebuttal to any of his arguments. That was his entire rebuttal to my opening statement. In his rebuttal he failed to:

  • Provide any justification for using the New Testament to prove Christ’s deity.
  • Provide any justification for interpreting the Old Testament texts through a Christological proto-orthodox lens.
  • Address my critique of his methodology.

So what was the result? CL was forced into preaching about his life as an ex-Muslim. At that point we had Muslims and Christians congratulating me on a momentous victory. What was funny to me was that CL was a Muslim for exactly half of my entire lifetime and he was unable to refute me, despite doing apologetics courses. I caught him off guard, brought new arguments and completely disarmed him. He didn’t know what to do. Seriously. He spent almost two minutes praising me in his conclusion as well, he had nothing to say, he couldn’t respond to the simple logic I used. I am not being boastful or prideful, but I am happy that haqq prevailed over baatil. CL got spanked horribly. We had no question and answer session as I was still medicated due to my post-op medication. Yet I was the one who stayed for about 15 minutes after the debate to take questions. CL fled immediately. Both Christians and Muslims were shocked that he ran away immediately after the debate.

The debate will be uploaded shortly. All I have to say is, I am happy it occurred, I got a chance to demonstrate how devastating simple arguments are and I am proud to have introduced new arguments into the fray of centuries old religious discourse. It’s also the first time in world history – to my knowledge, that a debate on Christ’s deity occurred and the opposing side did not quote the New Testament once. I hope to take up another debate soon and I pray that CL sees the reality of Islam soon, Ameen.

wa Allaahu ‘Alam.

Debate Announcement

بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ,

2013 is going to begin with a blast. Long time rival, CL Edwards of ‘Calling Muslims’, has opted to debate me on the personhood of Christ. The topic is, “Jesus the Christ, Man, God or Both?“. We’ll be having the debate via Paltalk Room, “Answering Christianity“, for information on the download and usage of Paltalk, click here. We’ll be having it on Saturday, 12th January (2013). It’s an oft-repeated topic, but it is the most important as well. Christ is centric to both the Islamic and Christian faiths, his position in either, as Christ is certain, but whether he is more or not is up for much discussion. I do hope to raise several interesting arguments, and some new ones as well. Allaah willing, I hope to present some fresh, new and exciting perspectives on the personhood of Jesus the Christ, ‘alayhi as salaatu wa salaam. My opponent, CL Edwards and I have had a long, but thrilling history which you can read of here. CL is an apologetics student, he’s appeared on ‘Jesus or Muhammad’ with Sam Shamoun and runs a blog on Christian apologetics. I look forward to seeing the arguments he is able to present.

As some would recall, my previous public debate incited a flurry of controversy due to my referencing of the Holy Prepuce. My opponent at that time couldn’t handle my use of historical data and decided to ‘attack‘ me with a counter claim of Allaah ta ‘aala having ‘genitals’ (far removed is He from such claims). Unfortunately for him, the information he used in his video was stolen from a Muslim website and the proprietor of website, refuted the Christian himself. Will this debate incur such controversy? I don’t know, but I do wish that it will provoke much inter-religious dialogue as the last one did, but perhaps with a little less genital talk. To find out the exact time use this easy to use website, just remember it’s 9 PM EST.

Debate-flier

wa Allaahu ‘Alam.

Muhammad [saws] in the Bible According to a Priest Turned Muslim

بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ,

Dr. David Benjamin Keldani or Dawud Benyamin (1867-c.1940) was a Catholic priest who converted to Islam and adopted the name Abd ul-Aḥad Dāwūd.  He started an attempted to disprove claims by Muslims that Muhammad is mentioned in their Bible, but to his surprise he ended up asserting the claim and accepting Islam. He wrote Muhammad in the Bible – originally published in 1928. To read the book “Muhammad in the Bible”, click here.

wa Allaahu ‘Alam.

The Best Christian Orator – Ever

بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ,

Speaker’s Corner in Hyde Park, London, has been home to very interesting public debate and discussion since its inception. Jay Smith, the popular but widely known to be academically challenged is arguably the worst Christian polemic known to Hyde Park’s frequent visitors. However, I actually think that I’ve found one Christian polemic who is significantly worse!

  • Racist
  • Abusive
  • Argumentative
  • Ignorant
  • Arrogant
  • Christian

Enjoy!

wa Allaahu ‘Alam.

 

Why the gospel of Matthew is not the-oldest?

The age of gospels is not as straight forward as they look! 

Question Mark

Introduction

Virtually all the scholars of Christian antiquity and New Testament now accept that gospel of Mark was the oldest gospel written originally in Greek by Peter’s assistant in Rome – St. Mark. And approximately after a decade and a half, Matthew and Luke penned their gospels. It is also accepted that both Matthew and Luke copied much of their text from Mark’s already available gospel. The information look pretty simple on the face of it but there are a few interesting, if not intriguing, queries to be pondered over:

  • Does not it come a little ironic, if not a tad fishy, that it was the disciple of the disciple writing the first gospel (or “receiving” the first gospel from Holy Ghost)! Is not it highly expected that it should be one of Jesus’ (peace be upon him) self chosen apostle to “receive” the first gospel?
  • Jesus’ (peace be upon him) very first target audience were the Jews of Palestine. So, should it not be expected that the first gospel be in the local tongue – may be Hebrew, Aramaic – catering to the general mass rather than in Greek – an otherwise alien language for an everyday Jew in Palestine.

In this paper, therefore, we would be concentrating over these concerns and would try to correlate its implication over the age as fixed by Christiandom for the gospels. We would be keenly interested into noting the purpose it served by adjudging gospel of Mark as the oldest gospel.

Why the gospel of Matthew is not the oldest.

Out of the four gospels vetoed as “canonical” by the church, only two are attributed to the “apostles” Jesus (peace be upon him) chose, namely, Matthew – the tax collector in first century Palestine and John, of course, the son of Zebedee. Mark and Luke were disciple and companion of Peter and Paul respectively. They were certainly not the immediate disciples of Jesus (peace be upon him).

Therefore, it makes a lot of sense based on seniority (an immediate apostle of Jesus (p)), knowledge (received preaching from Jesus (p) directly) and social setup (first century Hebrew/Aramaic speaking Palestinian) that if Matthew (or John) was anyhow to write a gospel then it should have been at least before Mark’s and Luke’s.

In fact if we have to pay any respect to the earliest and “orthodox” church fathers then they almost unanimously agree that it was Matthew who wrote his gospel first (!):

“Eusebius in his history (6.25.4) quotes Origen as saying that he had learned that “The first Gospel was written by Matthew, who was once a tax collector, but who afterwards was an Apostle of Jesus Christ, and it was prepared for converts from Judaism, and published n the Hebrew language.” (The Qur’an and the Gospels – A comparative Study by Dr. Muhammad M. Abu Laylah, pp.85)

A couple of information should be immediately captured. Firstly, Matthew wrote the first gospel. And, secondly, more importantly, that Matthew’s gospel was prepared for Jewish converts from Judaism in Hebrew language.

Origen is not the only early Christian figure, Augustine also concur the same:

Augustine in his work on the agreement of the evangelists (1.2.4.) writes: “Of these four it is certain that only Matthew is regarded as having written in the Hebrew language, while the others wrote in Greek” and he says that Mark “followed closely in his footsteps, as his imitator and epitomizer.” (The Qur’an and the Gospels – A comparative Study by Dr. Muhammad M. Abu Laylah, pp.85)

Furthermore, another early “orthodox” church figure Irenaeus writes the following in his famous book “Against Heresies” (3.1.1):

“Matthew also published a book of the Gospel among the Hebrews, in their own dialectWHILE Peter and Paul were preaching the Gospel in Rome and founding the Church.”

(W.Barclay, op. cit., vol. 1, p. 149; Bar-Hebraeus, p. 4; see also Meyer, The Gospel of Matthew, part 1, vol. 1, p. 6 and Brown, The Gospel According to St. Matthew, (J.B.C.), vol. 2, p. 65.)  (1.)

Observe that not merely does Irenaeus re-confirm that Matthew originally wrote his gospel in Hebrew, but he also substantially alludes to the time period in which it was written. He expressly states that Matthew wrote his gospel “while” Peter and Paul were preaching in Rome! This indicates Matthew’s gospel was contemporary to Paul and traditionally we know that Paul’s books predate every book of the New Testament including the gospels! (That’s another weird phenomenon).

Finally, Bible authority Barclay seals the matter for us:

As we have said, and was we have now seen, the tradition of the early Church is clear, consistent and unanimousIt was believed that Matthew wrote the first Gospel, and he wrote it first of all the gospels and that it was originally written in Hebrew.” (A. Plummer, An Exegetical Commentary on the Gospel According to St. Matthew, p. VIII.) (2.)

Therefore, if Matthew’s gospel was the-oldest then why is Mark’s gospel touted as the most primitive gospel amongst all?!; in the same way if the “early Church” was “unanimous” that Matthew’s gospel was oldest then why was it later “discovered” that Mark’s was the oldest?! And, if Matthew was originally written in Hebrew as the circumstances and earliest testimonies indicate, then why do we have current gospel of Matthew in Greek?

The answer to all such queries lays beneath the fact that original gospel of Matthew, the one which was written in Hebrew for Hebrews, has long been lost. And, in the absence of this document, the very next gospel – the gospel of Mark was “prioritized” as the-oldest.

Subsequently, when a concerted effort was made to reconstruct gospel of Matthew, the Greek gospel of Mark was used. No wonder, no less than an egregiously exorbitant 600 verses from Mark were copied into Matthew in the name of reception of “inspirations” from the so-called “Holy Ghost”!

However, such an unscrupulous copying entailed with it that Matthew – the Hebrew/Aramaic speaking Palestinian Jew – was now had to be assumed as an expert level Greek author; notwithstanding the basic premise that he was to write for the first century Palestinian Jews and not Greek speaking Europeans!

On this note, Muslim scholar Dr. Muhammad M. Abu Laylah’s makes very insightful remark:

“Origen, for example, tells us that Matthew’s Gospel was written for believers who had come from Judaism and the same view is held by Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria and Eusebius. The above information suggest an Aramaic origin for Matthew’s Gospel which has been generally abandoned on account of theuse of Mark and the LXX version of the O.T.”

According to the principle of the priority of Mark established 200 years ago in biblical criticism, the present Matthew is a Greek, not an Aramaic or Hebrew Gospel, and was composed in Greek, and could not have been composed except in Greek, that is because it has evidently copied 600 verses from the more primitive Gospel of Mark, which is purely Greek.

There is no indication that the Apostle Matthew wrote the existing Gospel; indeed, it is almost impossible, because the present Gospel was authored in Greek and copied 600 verses from Mark. (The Qur’an and the Gospels – A comparative Study by Dr. Muhammad M. Abu Laylah, pp.86-88)

The way to refute this critique!

 

In the following passage we have five queries. If these queries are satisfactorily answered then we think this critique would be falsified:

  1. Why would “Holy Ghost” go out of its way to bypass Jesus’ (peace be upon him) self chosen “apostle(s)” – Matthew – to first “inspire” Mark?
  2. On the same logic as above, why would “Holy Ghost” first consider a non Jewish audience for the gospel message. It is because Mark wrote his gospel in Greek which was not the vernacular of Jesus’ (peace be upon him) immediate Hebrew speaking audience in Palestine!
  3. Why would Matthew go out of his way to write his gospel in Greek for non-Jews when as noted by virtually all early church fathers that Matthew was to write “for believers who had come from Judaism” as a result of Jesus’ (peace be upon him) preaching in Palestine.
  4. If Matthew was divinely “inspired”, then why did the gospel of Matthew have copied texts from Mark’s gospel (and even ‘Q’ source for that reason)?
  5. What about the numerous testimonies of multiple early, “orthodox” church fathers? If scholarship deems Mark’s gospel to be the-oldest then were these “orthodox” church fathers shoddy historians to claim Matthew’s gospel as the oldest and in Hebrew language?

Conclusion

It was not gospel of Mark the-oldest “canonical” gospel written; however, there was a definite need under which it needed to be deemed as the oldest of all gospels. We sought out to investigate this need and it turned out as follows:

  1. The criterion of Matthew’s seniority as an “apostle” and his Palestinian culture strongly indicated that he should have been the person, before Mark, to write his gospel.
  2. On the foregoing, we found that many important “orthodox” early church “fathers” accepted that Matthew’s gospel was the first gospel written, even before Mark, in Hebrew language!
  3. Nevertheless, quite strangely, Matthew’s gospel in possession today is neither older than Mark’s nor in Hebrew. It is in Greek!
  4. Add to the above observation that the original, Hebrew gospel of Matthew is now lost.
  5. Therefore, when the lost gospel of Matthew was to be reconstructed using Mark’s gospel (and the ‘Q’ source), quite obviously, chronologically Matthew’s gospel had to fall after Mark’s – that’s fundamental calendar arithmetic. This reconstruction also entails that now Matthew’s gospel would not be in Hebrew but in Greek since its source, namely, Mark’s gospel, was in Greek!

Therefore, on one hand where we now have a well devised reason for gospel of Matthew being younger than Mark’s gospel; on the other hand, we also have the bitter truth that original gospel of Matthew is lost. And this embarrassment has ever since been sold as “principle of the priority of Mark” in the markets of biblical criticism amongst the Christians; and then pathetically stamped as “inspired”, “unchanged word of God”!

Footnote:

(1.) As cited in The Qur’an and the Gospels – A comparative Study by Dr. Muhammad M. Abu Laylah, p.85) 

(2.) As cited in The Qur’an and the Gospels – A comparative Study by Dr. Muhammad M. Abu Laylah, p.86)                                                                                                              

Notes:

  • Emphasize wherever not matching with original, is ours.

 

Refutation: Where Does Moses Prophesy of Jesus’ Coming?

بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ,

AO Ministry’s Francis Turretin, wasn’t too fond my recent exchange with a Christian missionary. In my exchange, my question essentially was, what was YHWH’s purpose for revealing the Law, according to the Torah itself. Subsequent to this, the missionary claimed that the purpose of the Law was to foretell the coming of Jesus the Christ, I asked for some evidence of this and sadly that particular missionary could not provide any. To his rescue!? If I may call it that is Francis who says:

“There are doubtless many ways in which Moses pointed to Jesus’ coming. The most obvious and explicit one is this:

Deuteronomy 18:15-19
The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; according to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.

And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.”

Except that:

  1. The brothers (‘ach in Hebrew) of the Israelites are any of the descendants of Abraham, inclusive of the Arabs.
  2. This verse is not a Messianic Prophecy.
  3. His application of it as a Messianic Prophecy is based on the fallacy of post-hoc eisegesis.
  4. Did Christ send himself, or was he sent by God? As it says ‘God will raise…’, not, ‘the Son’, ‘the Word’, ‘the Mashiach’ or,  ‘Immanuel’, would raise himself.
  5. Did Christ ever speak as a God? If so, then did he speak on behalf of his own identity as a son-God or as the verse says solely on behalf of the Father-God? As it is says, ‘I will put my words in his mouth…’.
  6. Did Christ give divine commands as a son-God or did he solely obey the will of the Father-God? As it says, ‘and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him‘.
  7. Finally, the last line explicitly states that the words the person in the verse being referred to will speak God’s words, as it says, ‘in my name‘ and that God will, ‘require it of him’. Was Christ required as a deity to do the will of another deity?

Sorry Francis, unfortunately your archaic Christian response based on post-hoc eisegesis of the Messiah’s mission will not aid your cause here. You’ve raised more problems than solutions and atleast for the better part of things, given us Muslims believable reasons to reject the dual nature of Christ according to these passages.

Still the question remains unanswered: ‘What does YHWH Say the Purpose of the Law Is?‘ and as a consequential question for our missionary friends, ‘Where does Moses say the Law is to Prophesy About Jesus?‘.

wa Allaahu ‘Alam.

Baptism is Needed for Salvation but Jesus Baptised No One

بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ,

One of the most important themes of the New Testament is the baptism of Jewish believers into the Christian faith, thus heralding the Spirit into their lives. In one of the more contentious passages of the Bible, Jesus allegedly made the following statement [1]:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

This verse ties salvation to being two fold, of belief and of baptism. It is known that baptism began with John the Baptist, hence his title and that Jesus himself was baptised by John in the river Jordan. This idea of being dunked in water for a ‘rebirth’ gained providence among the followers of Christ and thus the tradition of being ‘overwhelmed/ dunked in water’, literally: to be baptised, became a pillar of the Christian faith. However, when we read the New Testament, although Christ himself tied baptism to salvation, he did not baptise anyone [2]:

although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.

It is of utmost importance to understand why Christ did not himself baptise anyone. You see, it’s a bit of a problem, as being baptised with water is a tradition that was not supposed to continue. When John the Baptist was questioned by the Pharisees concerning his baptism he stated [3]:

questioned him, “Why then do you baptize if you are not the Messiah, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”

According to the Jewish leaders, only the Messiah was to baptise (literally: overwhelm) the people. Upon finding John doing this strange practise of baptising with water, a practise not found in the Old Testament, they challenged him. In another Gospel, John the Baptist says:

baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

Therefore, it is interesting to note that when the Messiah came, he would not baptise with water, but with the Spirit. Hence, when Jesus came, as the Bible rightfully says, he baptised no one with water, but some Christians did continue this tradition. We must ask ourselves two important questions:

  1. If John expected the Messiah to baptise with the Spirit and not with water, why do Christians still baptise with water?
  2. If Christ himself baptised no one with water, why do Christians still baptise with water?

It would then seem that baptism by water is not only an archaic process, but one which was and should have been absolved with the appearance of the Christ. One exegete says of this practise [4]:

And therefore as Nonnus observes, it was a false report that was made to the Pharisees; at least in part, so far as concerns the act of baptizing: though it may be this is observed, not so much to show the falsehood of that report, as to correct what is said of Christ’s baptizing; lest it should be understood, as if he baptized in his own person; whereas he did not, that not so, well comporting with his greatness and majesty: wherefore “the king did not baptize in water“, as Nonnus expresses it.

The Persic version indeed suggests, as if both Christ and his disciples baptized, rendering the words thus, “Jesus was not alone who baptized, but the disciples also baptized”: whereas the truth of the matter is, that Christ did not baptize in water at all.

Funnily enough, I came across one lexicon which explicitly declares that baptism by water is akin to an ancient Greek practise of dunking a pickle in a water solution:

to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk) to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe, to overwhelm.

Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that showsthe meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C.

It is a recipe for making picklesand is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that inorder to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be ‘dipped'(bapto) into boiling water and then ‘baptised’ (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in asolution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g.Mark 16:16. ‘He that believes and is baptised shall be saved’. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle!

Remember kids, when you’re baptised, it’s like being a pickle! We should also recall, that when you are baptised, according to the above quoted lexicon you are like a pickle, a vegetable. As it is commonly known and ironically so, to be a ‘vegetable’ in medical terms is to be, “One who is severely impaired mentally and physically, as by brain injury or disease.” [6]

Still however the answers as to why Christians still dunk themselves in water when (1) John the Baptist declared it would be archaic, and (2) Jesus himself never did it, are left to be desired.

wa Allaahu ‘Alam.

Sources:

[1] – Mark 16:16, Bible.
[2] – John 4:2, Bible.
[3] – John 1:25, Bible.
[4] – “John 4:2” – The New John Gill Exposition of the Entire Bible.
[5] – “Baptize” – NT Greek Lexicon, KJV.
[6] – “Vegetable” – The Free Dictionary.

Free Islamic Courses for New Muslims

بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ,

SeekersGuidance is offering classes for new Muslims that cover the basics of the Islamic faith. They are indepth, but simple enough for the newest of reverts to learn from. Free of charge, dedicated teachers and a simple registration/ courses system makes this an unmissable course. Check these links for more information New Muslim Series Part 1 and New Muslim Series Part 2. Share among your friends, especially among New Muslims as this knowledge will benefit them greatly!

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