When a ‘Christian’ met Tawhid Al Asma Wa Sifat
A response to the unexpected Christian objections
Introduction
A certain Christian named C.L.Edwards has objected to our paper wherein we discussed the problems which Christianity, especially the Trinitarian strand of it, faces while dealing with monotheism with regards to God’s attributes and names.
Throughout Edwards directed his response to Ijaz may be either due to careless negligence or sheer obsession as recently they were engaged in a debate. So whenever Edwards refers anything to Ijaz it is actually aimed at me.
Although it was an honor to read Edwards’ response, yet certain very important issues needed to be addressed which we intend to do in this paper.
Problem lies at the base
Edwards divides his response into twenty five bullet points. The most important of all lies at the very end! In fact as we would soon observe it shows the philosophy which Edwards as a Trinitarian endorses under the assumption of it being ‘doctrine of monotheism’. As such we would start our analysis from there. Here is Edward’s twenty fifth point:
25. Ijaz says…Monotheism simply means One God, the issue of God incarnating as a man and living the life of a man has nothing to do with whether God is One. The real issue clearly is Ijaz’s psychological hang ups about the incarnation.
Carefully observe the stress upon the definition of monotheism for Edwards. It simply and only means counting God as “One”. We assume this is a standard Trinitarian belief. Nevertheless, on one hand where it is extremely important to count God as one; on the other hand, it is not enough to merely count Him as one! Since even the pagans – by all sense of the word – also count God as one! Consider the following quotations from Hindu scriptures:
“There is only ONE God, not the second; not at all, not at all, not in the least bit.” (Concept of God in Major Religions, Brahma Sutra of Hindu Vedanta, pg. 8)
“He is One only without a second” (Concept of God in Major, Chandogya Upanishad 6:2:1, pg. 5)
Therefore, we do not think that by merely counting God as “one”, Edwards is any different from Hindus who are (generally) known polytheists. As such there has to be more to monotheism than just counting God as one. It is this lack of more qualifications to the imports of monotheism which drives Edwards towards beliefs wherein he allows all sorts of Idolatry under the aegis of Trinitarian Christianity:
24. He then says, “Nevertheless, they have no qualms when they ring their church bells about “God” being delivered out of Mary’s womb “in the crude way” or, “God” being poked on cross while he was almost naked or, still more weirdly, a dead “God” hanging on the cross with probably scavenger hovering over “His” head until his “dead body” was to be placed in a cave.” No we do not, just like the previous messengers had no qualms about this, nor Jesus disciples, nor Jesus himself. because this is what God had said would happen and it is what did happen. Your inability to accept or grasp how it could be is irrelevant, unless you only want a “god” that conforms to your mind(aka an idol).
To paraphrase Edwards’ stand: once a Christian has sufficiently “counted” God to be “one” then he is monotheist enough to allow God being delivered out of Mary’s womb in the crude way; God hanging almost nude on the cross; or even more embarrassingly, monotheists carrying God’s “dead body” into ‘His’ “grave”! So on and so forth.
In other words, a Hindu would be a polytheist since he is worshipping “God-man” like Krishna but a Trinitarian Christian would be a ‘monotheist’ destined to heaven since he worships Jesus (peace be upon him) – , albeit, another ‘God-man’; even though both a Hindu and a Christian “counts” God to be absolutely “one”! We do not really have any good explanation for this extremely biased and partisan approach towards different “God-mans” apart from the fact that either “God is God of Israel” – the nationalistic God and thus the biased approach or, the so-called philosophy of “hypostatic union”:
In fact Edwards readily accepted a number of utterly idolatrous acts for God under the name of hypostatic union. Following is the list,
1) God being procreated out of the womb of Mary “in the crude way”.
2) God contained inside His “mother’s” womb
3) God sucking his life of his mother.
4) God producing biological waste.
5) God almost made naked on cross.
6) God made to bleed and wounded.
7) God being spat on his face.
8) And, on top of all of that, “God” dying on the cross
9) And, “God’s” dead body being enshrouded and placed in cave.
And following is Edwards’ acceptance of them under the explanation of hypostatic union!
“16. Ijaz then lists many things that happened to Jesus Christ while incarnate as a man, that he says do not befit God. In a sense I agree from the stand point of God in his essence would never be nailed to a cross(how could a incorporeal being be nailed to anything?), but God incarnate in the manner detailed by the doctrine of the hypostatic union could and did do all those things without violating his “God-hood”.
Edwards goes on to explain what hypostatic union means and how it justifies all of the above blasphemous attributes upon God:
13. Ijaz then says “On the same reasoning, Jesus (peace be upon him) cannot be imputed with some of the attributes which ill-fits a “God”” Correction Jesus as the incarnate God-man having two natures could not have attributes ”ill-fit” for a God ascribed to his divine essence(dhat). As for His second additional nature that he took upon himself, it is fully human in every sense of the word. Since Jesus two natures are not mixed or co-mingled causing a dilution nor a cancellation of the other, Christs human nature imputes nothing ”ill-fit” to his divine nature.
This is pure Greek philosophy than anything else since we cannot have a “union” of two mutually exclusive attributes at the same time and in the same entity. Although Edwards asserts that Jesus’ (peace be upon him) humanity would not interrupt his divinity yet this is not possible. To explain this let’s take a situation in Jesus’ (peace be upon him) life where he was in his mother’s womb. When the baby, in other words, the human Jesus (peace be upon him) was in the womb along with it the “God” of Trinitarians was also clinging to the uterine wall of Mary! So, where it is perfectly acceptable for a human Jesus (peace be upon him) to be contained in Mary; however, it is grotesque even to imagine “God” hanging in Mary’s womb! And yet this is exactly acceptable under the explanation of “hypostatic union”!
To further realize the absurd implications of the “hypostatic union”, we would go further earlier in Mary’s pregnancy. Think about the time when Jesus (peace be upon him) was not even a baby in the womb – the zygote state. By the very token of “hypostatic union” we would have to grant that the zygote was both a mere human-pre-natal state and at the same time (hypostatic union) “God” Almighty clinging to the womb of Mary as a mere two celled organism! So if the dual nature of Jesus (peace be upon him) – the divine and the human – by the virtue of “hypostatic union” allows him to be referred as “God-man” during his adult ministry, then by the same token of “hypostatic union” it should have been ‘doctrinally’ permissible to call him “God-zygote” during his incipient stages!?
The above explanations make it amply clear that the human nature of Jesus (peace be upon him) does interfere with his divine nature (if he has one). And this cannot be merely explained away by assuming that “two natures are not mixed or co-mingled causing a dilution nor a cancellation of the other, Christs human nature imputes nothing ”ill-fit” to his divine nature.”!
At last, some attributes are blasphemous
Edwards, however, does not allow everything for Jesus (peace be upon him):
15…For those unfamiliar with Christian doctrine it does not teach “the “Son of God” would procreate his “Son””. Ijaz does such things constantly and despite being corrected he continues on, I can only speculate because it befits his attempts at dawah.
Note how precisely Edwards deny the notion that Jesus (peace be upon him) would beget any kid(s). He reasons that the “Christian doctrine…does not teach” so. However hardly does he care to enquire why the “Christian doctrine” is so? Why Jesus (peace be upon him) cannot procreate? The reason is simple. Jesus (peace be upon him) – the human – begetting a kid would be acceptable but because of the “hypostatic” phenomenon, the divine nature is also co-residing; thus, Jesus (peace be upon him) betaking kids would defy all monotheistic paradigms. And in this situation church mandated the Christian “doctrine” that Jesus (peace be upon him) cannot beget kids.
However, on one hand where the “Christian doctrine” disallows Jesus (peace be upon him) begetting kids, nevertheless, ironically it does allow Jesus (peace be upon him) himself being begotten off Mary! Furthermore, Christian “doctrine” does allow Jesus (peace be upon him) to bleed, sweat, feel for hunger, and so logically, have all other hormonal developments including reproductive as there is in any other human being – yet the only thing he cannot do is beget kids!
It was to circumvent these nasty implications that Islam qualified that there is more in monotheism than mere count of God as “one”. It made it necessary that besides recognizing and counting God as one, sufficient care has to be taken with regards to His attributes. His attributes should not be invested upon His creation and vice-versa.
In fact the Hebrew Bible also teaches the same! Therefore, we quoted Exodus20:4. Nevertheless, Edwards neglected it with the explanation that the verse merely speaks against the “making” of idols:
4. Exodus 20:4 does not prove the following statement, “Quite obviously Bible is denying that attribute of any creation can be imputed upon the Almighty”. Exodus 20:4 is a prohibition against making idols.
Similarly, for obvious Trinitarian reasons, Edwards also asserted that Deuteronomy 4:16 does not speak against any humanization of God:
18. Ijaz further exposes his lack of knowledge of Christian theology by supposing the incarnation of Christ is some how like the craving of a idol in his quoting of Deuteronomy 4:16. I am not sure how a command from God to Israel to not crave idols disproves God could have the ability(or will) to take on a second additional nature and co-exist as both God and man. Again ijaz ignores the actual topic of the passage(do not make idols) and feels free to make it say what he “feels” it should say.
We would consider Deuteronomy 4:16 only for brevity and check if it only concerns with “making” of idols. This is what the text reads:
Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female, (Deuteronomy 4:16)
As usual Edwards neglects the reason why God is not to be represented in an idol. A verse earlier, Bible explicitly gives the reason:
And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it. Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: (Deuteronomy 4:14-15)
God’s reasoning is very clear: On the day when He spoke, Israelites could not observe His similitude to any of His creatures! As such it was forbidden that Israelites represent Him in any shape or form including human males. More specifically, God does not have any similitude to male humans and thus it would be idolatry to conceive Him in that form and worship.
However, when Edwards tries to limit the scope of the verse to mean merely forbiddance of idol making and worship, then he even goes against the standard Christian interpretation of the verse:
Deuteronomy 4:16
The likeness of male or female – Such as Baal-peor and the Roman Priapus, Ashtaroth or Astarte, and the Greek and Roman Venus; after whom most nations of the world literally went a whoring. (Adam Clarke’s commentary on the Bible)
the likeness of male or female; of a man or a woman; so some of the Heathen deities were in the likeness of men, as Jupiter, Mars, Hercules, Apollo, &c. and others in the likeness of women, as Juno, Diana, Venus, &c. Some think Osiris and Isis, Egyptian deities, the one male, the other female, are respected; but it is not certain that these were worshipped by them so early. (John Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible)
Out of the many names which the commentator has provided many were real mennot mere idols. However, they are criticized as “Heathen deities” since God has no similitude to “males”! And so personification of God is here termed as paganism.
Nevertheless, Christians would never apply the same standards upon Jesus (peace be upon him) even though he is just another male like Hercules or Apollo! In Jesus (peace be upon him), Christians somehow do see (similitude of) God notwithstanding the premises of the preceding Hebrew biblical verses.
To further expose the weakness of the argument that the verse merely speaks about “making” of idols we would consider the era when, say, Krishna was physically moving around in the villages of India “preaching” about spirituality and performing “miracles” among masses. And consider the group of people worshipping him during his earthly ministry; now what would Edwards say about the religious practices of these people! Are they ‘monotheists’ (remember they (Hindus) staunchly count God as one) – or polytheists! Note that these people would not be into any idol business since they have their deity physically present with them. If Edwards would still deem them as polytheists for the mere reason that they worshipped a “God-man” then how is he himself with all other Christians a ‘monotheist’?
As such Christians should provide strong enough reasons why as a non-Christian we should reject all other “Heathen” god-men in the name of ‘monotheism’ but yet accept the deity of Jesus (peace be upon him), who was yet another god-man. One cannot accept such a notion unless s/he is flagrantly biased; since, if Jesus (peace be upon him) performed miracles and that makes him to be “God” then so did a number of other claimants of divinity in other religions. If Christians have a “scripture” which allegedly speak of Jesus’ (peace be upon him) deity; most other “Heathen” religions also have scripture, in fact many even predating New Testament, that also speak of their candidates as gods! And most importantly, if Jesus (peace be upon him) is a “God-man” so were a number of others!
But if the acceptance-rejection yardstick lies only on the mere fact that the “Heathens” in absence of their man-gods portrayed them in idols then we would have to accept that the few sects of Christianity, which are easily outnumbered by more dominant ones, are only a step behind in “Heathenism” since they do have full-blown image/idol of Jesus (peace be upon him) in their minds during their “services”.
Humanization in Islam
On the fly, Edwards accused Islam of humanizing God as well:
17. Ijaz a man who follows a religion that teaches God has a face, two eyes, a shin, feet, will be seen in the form of a man, and descends down into time and space then claims, “ What is disappointing in all of this is that Bible strictly speaks against any such idolatrous humanization of God”. Besides the fact that Christian theology doesn’t teach the humanization of God in the manner Ijaz accuses, see point 13, 15 and 16.
Islamic Scriptures does speak about face, shin but it also states that:
(He is) the Creator of the heavens and the earth: He has made for you pairs from among yourselves, and pairs among cattle: by this means does He multiply you: there is nothing whatever like unto Him, and He is the One that hears and sees (all things). (Qur’an 42:11)
Commenting on the above highlighted part of the verse, Shaikh Philips writes the following:
The attributes of hearing and seeing are among the human attributes, but when they are attributed to The Divine Being they are without comparison in their perfection. However, when these attributes are associated with men they necessitate ear and eye apparatuses which cannot be attributed to God. What man knows about the Creator is only what little He has revealed to him through His prophets. Therefore, man is obliged to stay within these narrow limits. When man gives free reign to his intellect in describing God, he is liable to fall into error by assigning to Allah the attributes of His creation. (The Fundamentals of Tawheed (Islamic Monotheism), Dr. Abu Ameenah Bilal Philips, pp 28-29)
And,
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (Qur’an 112: 1-4)
Noted Qur’an commentator Yusuf Ali also reflects likewise:
This sums up the whole argument and warns us specially against Anthropomorphism, the tendency to conceive of Allah after our own pattern, an insidious tendency that creeps in at all times and among all peoples.
Thus when Allah (SWT) states that He has a Face or Hands etc the similarity lies only in the linguistic words, certainly not in the imports. On the basis of preceding Qur’anic verses, we do not have any warrant to make deductions/conclusions that if Allah (SWT) said about His Face then it would mean a face made up of two eyes, one nose, pair of lips and ears – comprising of epidermis, fat, muscles, nerves, blood etc; since in the end God also said “nothing whatsoever is like unto Him”. We need to be particularly careful with the last clause since God will question about it.
Conclusion
With regards to Edwards’ understanding of monotheism, we observed some peculiar and typical statements like,
18…I am not sure how a command from God to Israel to not crave idols disproves God could have the ability(or will) to take on a second additional nature and co-exist as both God and man.
25…Also Monotheism simply means One God, the issue of God incarnating as a man and living the life of a man has nothing to do with whether God is One. The real issue clearly is Ijaz’s psychological hang ups about the incarnation.
These give strong indication for the type of philosophy Edwards endorses as “monotheism”; and we assume that Edwards is trying his best to demonstrate the standard Christian doctrine of monotheism. As such the type of monotheism which Christianity offers to humanity is extremely narrow. It is just the count of God to one which matters added with the denial of idols.
However, Christianity does allow drawing similitude to God even though the Hebrew Bible expressly rejects it. In order to accommodate the “incarnation” or the humanization of God, Christianity neglects the reason why the God of Israel forbade representing Him through idols. It was because, as He explained, He does not have any similitude or resemblance to any of His creation, including “male” humans. And so it would be attributing “male” resemblance upon God which has to be rejected as paganism. If this essence and theme is neglected from the verse then it does not matter whether one worships Jesus (peace be upon him) or Krishna or any other “God-man” since, as we saw, even the Hindu scriptures counted God as “one” so a Krishna worshipper is still a ‘monotheist’ in that regard. Thus, until we filter out “incarnation” of God (i.e., attributing the qualities of humans upon God), as a non-Christian it is hard to see difference between Paganism and Christianity.
And so in all good spirit we request Edwards to ponder into the following words of God where He is addressing the very delusion of most humans who ‘think’ they believe in God but…
…most of them believe not in Allah without associating (other as partners) with Him! (Qur’an 12:106)
“Travel through the earth and see what was the end of those before (you):Most of them worshipped others besides Allah.” (Qur’an 30:42)
Notes:
- Unless otherwise mentioned, all Qur’anic texts taken from Yusuf Ali Translation.
- Unless otherwise mentioned, all biblical texts taken from King James Version.
- All emphasize wherever not matching with original is ours.
P.S.: This paper was mostly responsive where we responded to a number of issues Edwards raised. During the course, we touched on issues which might hurt Christian feelings. Nevertheless, it was never our intention to hurt any sincere Christian sentiment. We apologize, in case, if any Christian sentiment has been hurt. We seek God’s guidance and mercy.
Calling Christians 
Excellent! May Allāh grant you all bliss and success in this life and the next.
Very interestingly, I have recently had a discussion on Paul Williams’ blog about the bias of Christians when it comes to other apparently monotheistic doctrines like Christianity. I asked why the Christian version of multiplicity of “persons” of God is the “correct” one, why people believing in 5000+ “persons” of one god are not monotheist, and why people who believe the one god expresses himself in many forms on earth are not monotheists.
I think those who invented the trinity are apparently clever players with words – when they are confronted with such logical arguments their recourses are the hypostatic union and the “persons” and “essence” of God.
Nevertheless, regarding the Crucifixion, actually the hypostatic union does more harm than good. If we say it was the “man nature” of Jesus (p), then in fact God didn’t die for our sins and nothing happened. If we say the “divine nature” died, then God died!
(Originally from Abdullah Kunde)
Edwards also fell into the trap in which many people, including atheists, fell into – that since God is omnipotent then He can do anything, thus justifying incarnation (literally, the infinite becoming finite yet retaining his infinite powers!).
Regrading the “shin” of Allāh Almighty:
“(Remember) the Day when the Shin shall be laid bare (i.e. the Day of Resurrection) and they shall be called to prostrate (to Allah), but they (hypocrites) shall not be able to do so,” (Qur’an 68:042)
Al-Tabari says, “A number of the exegetes of the Companions and their students held that it (a day when the shin shall be exposed) means that a dire matter (amrun shaded) shall be disclosed” (Jami’ al-bayan, 29:38) – the shin’s association with direness being that it was customary for Arab warriors fighting in the desert to ready themselves to move fast and hard through the sand in the thick of the fight by lifting the hems of their garments above the shin.
Ibn ‘Abbas, a famous Companion of the Prophet, sallahu alaihi wa salam, said that ‘saq (or shin)’ in the above verse means “a day of war and direness (harbin wa shidda)”
Source: http://www.defending-islam.com/page268.html
An excellent refutation to the so-called hypostatic union, by Shabir Ally.
quote:
Why does god need to kill himself to save you from himself?
Truly god sacrificed truly god to himself. Or is it, Complete god
sacrificed Complete god to himself? Or is it truly god sacrificed a
part of himself that was truly man to himself?
Here, let’s narrow it down. What part of god did god sacrifice to
himself and how is that in any way a redemptive act?
My argument was that claiming something is “fully”
and “not fully” is logically impossible…how is it
logically possible to be “truly God” and “not truly God?” Or “complete
God” and “not complete God?”
And, more importantly, how can something be “truly God” and “truly
man,” when “truly God” trumps “truly man” and what does that mean in
terms of a redemptive sacrifice of one’s own self, even if that self is
just a lesser part? I cut off my arm as a sacrifice to myself in order
to save you from my wrath? Is that the thrust here? Because I require a
sacrifice in order to save you (a blood sacrifice, no less) and that
sacrifice has to be “pure” in order for it to work in my mind, I
therefore cut off my own arm (a “pure” arm) in order to satisfy my own
requirments, therefore making the requirement larger than myself?
Complete God sacrifices that part of himself that is Complete Man (or
Truly Man, or whatever other spin you want to put on it) to himself in
order to save us from himself; a self-evidently irrelevant process that
must therefore mean that the act of sacrifice is so necessary that not
even God himself can avoid its mandate
end quote
one would think about this for a minute and ask WHY WOULD A DIETY who has absolute control and power over death, and one WHO WATCHES DEATH EVERY second , want to apply it on to his CREATED/MANUFACTURED flesh?
how did he get a “spiritual buzz” by having his CREATED FLESH hooked on a cross, when THE FLESH part has ABSOLUTELY NO AFFECT on his spiritual part and his spiritual part is ALWAYS dominant over the flesh part?
the only solution is for christians and thier god to DIEFY /raise the rank of CREATED flesh to that of gods spirit and it is only this way they can show to the world that they and THEIR god WORSHIPS flesh.
god, in christianity loves you, because he is a slave of his self abuse to himself.
if you don’t believe he wrecked himself to save you from himself, then his love is CONDITIONAL upon your belief that he wrecked himself.
This was one of the most mixed up things I have ever read in my life, would you like to debate this topic ?
The first part of my reply ” An concise reply to Question Mark’s monstrosity ” A response to the unexpected Christian objections ”
http://www.callingmuslims.com/2013/02/an-concise-reply-to-question-marks.html
The 2nd reply
http://www.callingmuslims.com/2013/02/an-concise-reply-to-question-marks_4.html
reply # 3
http://www.callingmuslims.com/2013/02/an-concise-reply-to-question-marks_2059.html
, “Christianity neglects the reason why the God of Israel forbade representing Him through idols. It was because, as He explained, He does not have any similitude or resemblance to any of His creation, including “male” humans. And so it would be attributing “male” resemblance upon God which has to be rejected as paganism”
one would think to himself why would god who created my penis want to wear one , when his created penis would not be linked to his created human brain, because god doesn’t get tempted with sexual thoughts, so how is god 100 % human when he destroyed the link between his brain cells and his created penis? look this all looks sick to attribute such crap to the almighty, but i attribute it to the pagan man worshipping god of christianity.
sham shamoun believes there is communual love making in the trinity. each person is making love with the other person. so i guess if there were communual toilets in jesus’ time, christians would join jesus in passing excrement and at the same time worship him in the location of communal toilet
it is funny that crack induced pagans like sham shamoun make noise when it comes to “obey ALLAH AND his messenger” or when the Qur’aan says that Muhammads ways/habits are to set example for people . but here is the thing. shamoun, you crack induced pagan polythiest, doesn’t your god use flesh and big up/ give status to flesh after he has performed an ACT in flesh? don’t u people focus on flesh when you cry like wolves on sundays and have imagery/picture of the as s whipping the romans gave your god in meat? don’t u imagine it and have “spiritual connection” with fleshly act? so which god did an act in flesh and PRAISED it to his level? which god is that shamoun? which god carried a cross in flesh? now who carried the cross? god or the human? why would a god want to see himself carry a cross when he carries the whole universe? see, your god is deluded pagan.
Hi Mansubzero
You never stop do you…the article says the following…
1) God being procreated out of the womb of Mary “in the crude way”.
Ok according to the scriptures the koran and the bible was there a virgin birth?
If so in the light of John1:1 and verse 14 what does that mean to you?
If you don’t believe in what Christians believe get on with your life, if you are an example of a Muslim then it’s quite sad. you try to come across like you know what Christians believe but your analogies are pathetic and childish.
You have no understanding about love as spoken of in the bible and so you think by mocking what Sam Shamoun says that it somehow means Isalm has a victory.
I would rather follow The Lord Jesus the sinless Jesus I might add that even your koran admits to talk about the sinless Christ.
Then one of your brothers puts a video of Dr Ally supposedly refuting the Trinity I saw the debate and the question and answers and he didnt refute anything.
1+1+1 =3 equals three we know that…consider the following.
Act 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; ok let’s see who God is that raised up Jesus.
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Joh 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Joh 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
Joh 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
The Father, Son (the word) and the Holy Ghost involved in the resurrection of Jesus
Answer me properly and don’t post any stupid comments I’m trying to be serious about this because in the end people will go to heaven or hell based on what they believed and how they lived.
Hey Mansubzero
Here is an example of your confusion….
Why does god need to kill himself to save you from himself?
Truly god sacrificed truly god to himself. Or is it, Complete god
sacrificed Complete god to himself? Or is it truly god sacrificed a
part of himself that was truly man to himself?
BLOOD SACRIFICE…IN ISLAM. here is something for you to read…enjoy
In Islam there are also sacrifices, blood-covenants and consecration by blood, of which many seem unaware. The chief feast in the world of Islam is the Feast of Sacrifice held at Mecca during the pilgrimage and simultaneously in every Moslem community from Tangier and Timbuctoo to Bombay and Bokhara.
The sacerdotal function in Islam as in all religions is that of blood-sacrifice. Abraham not only made the great renunciation at Mount Moriah but was a priest of his household, built altars and sacrificed. Melchizedak was a priest of the most High without special consecration. So among the Semites the patriarch was priest. Among the Arabs we also find blood-sacrifice as a household rite before Islam and in Islam; and the great festival, the Feast-of-Sacrifice was consecrated and perpetuated by Mohammed at Mecca when he acted as priest-prophet for his followers for the first time as conqueror of the old Arab shrine.
There are six words used in the Mohammedan religion to express the idea of sacrifice. Zabh, used in the Koran (5:4) for Abraham’s sacrifice of his son. Qurban, this word occurs three times in the Koran. In places (3:179; 5:30) it obviously means an offering or sacrifice; in the third passage (46:27) the meaning is obscure. In Christian-Arabic the word signifies the Eucharist. The Lisan dictionary give two striking traditions: “The characteristics of the Moslem community lie in the fact that their qurban is their blood,” i.e., those who died in jihad as martyrs. And the other: “The daily prayer is the qurban of every pious man.” This same word, however, is used in Persia and India and China for the sacrifice at the great festival ‘Id-i-Qurban.
Nahr, to cut the jugular vein is used in the Koran (108:1-2) in a command to the prophet to sacrifice a camel. Udhiya is the word used in Moslem tradition for the annual sacrifice at Mecca (Mishkat, Bk. IV, ch. 19). Hady occurs four times in the Koran for animal victims sent to Mecca when the pilgrim himself is not able to be in time for the sacrifice, (2:193 and 5:2, 96, 98). It signifies a vicarious present. Finally, there is the word mansakh (Koran 22:35). “We have appointed to every nation a rite.” The commentator, Baidhawi, explains this as sacrifice (Tafsir, p. 91).
There are two main occasions when Islam enjoins a blood-sacrifice, namely, at the birth of a child (‘aqiqa), and at the annual feast in Mecca which is also celebrated in every Moslem community. The first is the sacrament of initiation, like Christian baptism. The second is commemorative, as the Eucharist also is in part. Yet both have features and prayers which seem both expiatory and vicarious.
Elsewhere there is a full account of the ‘aqiqa sacrifice.1 Suffice to say it consists in shaving the head of the new-born child, killing a sheep or goat as sacrifice, no bone of which may be broken, and offering this prayer: “O God, here is the ‘aqiqa for my son [giving the name], its blood for his blood, its flesh for his flesh, its hair for his hair and save my son from the fire, etc.” (The full prayer is given by Herklots and Swestermarck).2 Doughty states that this sacrifice is the most common of Islamic religious ceremonies in the Arabian desert. It may be derived from Arabian paganism but it has Jewish features and, in parts of the Moslem world (e.g. Morocco and China), the sacrificer is not the father of the child but the mullah or imam. So this custom is common everywhere in Islam today. What does it signify? Why does a Moslem child need blood-atonement?
The great Feast of Sacrifice in the world of Islam is annually celebrated to commemorate Abraham’s faith in willingness to sacrifice his son. That was Mohammed’s attempted unhistoric explanation of the ancient pagan ritual at Mecca which he perpetuated. The details of the annual celebration at Mecca have been described by Burckhardt, Burton, Hurgronje and later travelers. The whole ceremony is based on an injunction of the Koran (22: 33-38). It includes prayers, a brief exhortation, the killing of a sheep, goat, camel, or other clean animals, a partaking of the sacrifice, ablution, and shaving of their hair. Although the sacrifice can be made by any male Moslem, the religious part of the festival is always in the charge of an imam and is conducted in a musalla, a special area set apart for prayer on this annual occasion.3 Everywhere the head of the sacrifical victim must be turned toward the Ka’ba. Edmond Doutté and Westermarck have written extensively on this feast of sacrifice and other blood-sacrifices common among Moslems of North Africa and in Islam generally. There are such sacrifices at laying foundations of a house, launching a ship, in time of epidemic, to fulfill a vow or to atone for some omission in the ritual of Islam. The idea of expiation and the sanctity of the sacrificer when he officiates are so evident that Doutté, a Roman Catholic, closes his chapter with this observation: “With us the sacrifice of the Mass renews every day this expiation and the Church defines justification as the application of the merits of the suffering of Jesus Christ to the sinner. Moslems have not reached that far. The idea of redemption has not penetrated their thought as it has Christian thought. But we have told enough to show the great importance of the idea of sacrifice in the development of their dogma in this respect.”
Westermarck tells of blood-sacrifices made by Moslems at the tombs of saints to secure their intercession; on the sea for a safe voyage; at the eclipse of the sun or moon; on the threshing-floor to bless the harvest; on taking a solemn oath; or even to consecrate a new market place in the village.5 He also gives traditions and practices regarding the expiatory value of the blood shed at the annual animal-sacrifice feast.
We may well ask, what does all this mean to a thoughtful Muslim? The Koran denies the death of Christ on the Cross and yet makes sacrifice, the great Feast of Islam at its focal centre, Mecca, obligatory on true believers.
reply part 4
http://www.callingmuslims.com/2013/02/an-concise-reply-to-question-marks_6.html
you stupid pathetic polythiestic flesh worshipin /animal worshipin bum, NOT ONE of your anwers ADDRESSED ANYTHING I WROTE.
WHY did your god wear a penis? for what? why not a vagina? why didn’t he use his vagina to bleed 4 mankinds sins considering women have bleeding every month?
why did a bum like you post this crap when u knew you couldn’t address anything?
QUOTE:
it is funny that crack induced pagans like sham shamoun make noise when it comes to “obey ALLAH AND his messenger” or when the Qur’aan says that Muhammads ways/habits are to set example for people . but here is the thing. shamoun, you crack induced pagan polythiest, doesn’t your god use flesh and big up/ give status to flesh after he has performed an ACT in flesh? don’t u people focus on flesh when you cry like wolves on sundays and have imagery/picture of the as s whipping the romans gave your god in meat? don’t u imagine it and have “spiritual connection” with fleshly act? so which god did an act in flesh and PRAISED it to his level? which god is that shamoun? which god carried a cross in flesh? now who carried the cross? god or the human? why would a god want to see himself carry a cross when he carries the whole universe? see, your god is deluded pagan.
, “Christianity neglects the reason why the God of Israel forbade representing Him through idols. It was because, as He explained, He does not have any similitude or resemblance to any of His creation, including “male” humans. And so it would be attributing “male” resemblance upon God which has to be rejected as paganism”
one would think to himself why would god who created my penis want to wear one , when his created penis would not be linked to his created human brain, because god doesn’t get tempted with sexual thoughts, so how is god 100 % human when he destroyed the link between his brain cells and his created penis? look this all looks sick to attribute such crap to the almighty, but i attribute it to the pagan man worshipping god of christianity.
QUOTE:
can god die?
No – one said that death is the cessation of existence: but in any case this is irrelevant to the discussion of whether God experiences death. Our understanding is that even for humans, death is an experience of the personhood after which it continues in a different or more fundamental form. Whether it ceases to exist and is ‘remade’ I don’t care to say.
So to answer your attempt to (inappropriately) introduce Islamic theology to answer a point of Christian doctrine, we believe that there is an existence after death. Whether it is continuous or there is a ‘gap’ of non-physical (or even souls) existence is to be clarified. So don’t pretend that we are all agreed that there is a continuous existence with no period of non – existence after death. This is twisting Islamic Kalam to help a Christian idea, which is invalid methodology in any case.
If you assert that (a death with a continuous or discontinuous ‘existence’ presumably of the soul) for God, that’s up to you: We certainly do not. In any case, something immortal does not experience death i.e. it does not die, whether death is cessation of existence, moving on to a different plane of existence, re-incarnation or whatever.
If you would like to say that God experiences death but it is not cessation of existence, fine. That is also what Christians assert for humans as you implied, that death is not ‘the end’ so there is nothing interesting or rhetorical about this ‘death is not the end’ point at all and your attempt to use it is not helpful in distinguishing God in any way.
‘As far as I can tell Muslims hold that after physical death you go to glory or judgment. This is certainly what Christians believe. Therefore when Jesus died as God he could still run the world- As he didn’t cease to exist’
Then the same is true of humans. Can they continue to run their daily affairs after or DURING the process of ‘death’? Can a guy make a sandwich while experiencing death? Are you asserting that dying is of no consequence as regards people’s interactions and ability to affect change in the physical realm? I think the analogy is inappropriate. And BTW, that’s not what Muslims believe, but that’s another story.
If you would assert that the ‘soul’ or whatever of God can undergo the same process of death as a human or an ape or a dog or a cat (!) then you must show in what way ‘God’ is still empowered to run the universe during his death, since in this respect, creatures are most certainly not ‘in control’ during their death. Or maybe you assert that human beings resurrect and raise THEMSELVES from death.
Also, if you persist in these types of analogies, then for humans ‘death’ involves the change of the human to a spiritual body, at least according to the Bible. What change does death effect in God? And if it effects no change, then is such a death to be called a death at all?
You further need to prove that there is a continuous existence of the souls for humans or whatever and it is not merely in a storage device as a pattern or in the ‘mind’ of God. So you are unable to show from your doctrine that there is a continuous existence during which death is merely an event and not a destruction and remaking or a gap till the day of resurrection or storage as a pattern or whatever speculation you would have us undertake.
In any case, it makes no sense for Paul to assert that God is immortal or does not die if by this he means God is the same as the ‘immortal soul’ of human beings. Then he might as well say: ‘humans are immortal, they do not die’ etc. In fact, you have put your ideas into the mouth of Paul: He did not say speculate whether death is or is not the cessation of existence, he said God does not die, He lives forever etc. You have now come along and said that death is not the cessation of existence, but as you well know, the same is true for humans, so I don’t see how that makes God exceptional, except that in the case of humans, their continued existence after death is dependant on God whereas God’s continued existence must then depend on some other agent (who would then be the real God). If this is not the case then God’s death was in no way a real death since it was not an experience of his soul which required an outside agent to reverse it.
Either he did not die in any real sense and the doctrine of salvation is redundant or he did die and Paul is wrong.
END QUOTE
about islam
lads, when did islam tell muslims to REMEMBER THE BLOODY slaughtering of the 4 legged animal when its throat is slit?
when did islam tell the muslims to CARRY THE SHARP knife around thier KNECKS?
WHEN did islam tell the muslims to make SUNDAY MEALS OF THE dead animal?
when did islam say to make the FLESH OF THE ANIMAL THE GREATEST SACRIFICE?
when did islam say that it is the animals BLOOD WHICH ATONES for sins?
all this crap is FROM the bible, not the qur’aan
ONE OTHER THING
WHY WOULD a god do animal rituals on his own CREATED meat? why do what the pagans did to baby flesh?
what was the obsession
more to come
u seem to be quoting that crack induced slut sham shamoun . why don’t you understand your greek GARBAGE in light of how greek PAGANS used pauls GREEK words for pagan sacrificies? why interpret islam in light of a religion which islam clearly competes with? islams “qurbaan” and christians aramaic/syriac and jewish hebrew “qurbaan” should be seen in light of each other? you pagan faggot? grow some brains man.
wow, your friend ibn anwar is here now, so maybe you would like to take him on.
here are my questions for flesh,blood, skin worshipping pagans like u
1.how many people in the trinity torchered/handicaped the sons spirit?
2. did the romans kill complete/fully god+flesh+ spirit?
when the son didn’t know about figs on a tree, did the sons spirit EXPERIENCE knowledge loss?
did the father and holy ghost know from a distance that there were no figs on a tree?
so if they knew , then what % of god KNEW? complete god knew or not complete god?
WHY like typical evangelist bum, are you interpreting words in the qur’aan in light of how pagan christian arabs and jews used them?
did you try pauls greek with hercules greek and establish a link?
Hi Mansubzero
You haven’t answered my article on blood sacrifice in Islam and stop using foul language, your example as a Muslim (if you are a real one) is pathetic
Yours wasn’t an article defendchrist. That was a no brainer.
You just brought up 2 issues – Qurban and Aqiqa. And your grotesque “article” (as you put it) was verbose with little stuff inside it.
Qurban and Aqiqa are not done to wash away sins with blood. Rather it has no connection to washing away sins.
********
And the camels and cattle We have appointed for you as among the symbols of Allah ; for you therein is good. So mention the name of Allah upon them when lined up [for sacrifice]; and when they are [lifeless] on their sides, then eat from them and feed the needy and the beggar. Thus have We subjected them to you that you may be grateful.
Their meat will not reach Allah , nor will their blood, but what reaches Him is piety from you.
(Qur’an 22:36,37)
The animal’s blood does not reach Allah, but only our piety reaches him.
********
But this is not the case with your bible. You believe that your god forgave your sins because of the “blood” of Jesus. (which cannot at all be compared with the Qur’an as we do not believe that any blood will reach Allah. Only my piety counts in Islam.)
Then Noah built an altar to the LORD and took some of every clean animal and some of every clean bird and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth.
(Genesis 8:20,21)
And again see clearly. Your biblical god wants blood and flesh to forgive. Your god smells the burning flesh and forgives unlike Allah who does not require any blood or gore to forgive.
********
The Qurban and the Aqiqa meat is not burnt in Islam. It is eaten by people. The Qurban and the Aqiqa were primarily instituted so that the people who could afford to buy an animal would buy and distribute meat to the poorer among the community, so that they too can partake a good diet on a day of celebration.
Jazāka Allāhu kulla khayr, bro. ursamajor! I will post your excellent response to his “article” on another blog where he posted it again, if you don’t mind.
Hi
What is the purpose for the sacrifice?
Haven’t I answered you already in my previous reply ? Are you being redundant ?
Their meat will not reach Allah , nor will their blood, but what reaches Him is piety from you.
(Qur’an 22:37)
Allah checks our piety with it. The animal is either bought, or is chosen from the stock what a person already has. Both have a monetary value. So Allah checks whether a person is ready to spend out of his pocket and sacrifice the animal and give a portion of it to the needy.
Haven’t I posted this in my previous reply ?
The Qurban and the Aqiqa were primarily instituted so that the people who could afford to buy an animal would buy and distribute meat to the poorer among the community, so that they too can partake a good diet on a day of celebration.
Where is washing away of sins in this ?
the purpose of sacrifice FOR A 100 PERCENT human being is to REMIND himself that every atom BELONGS TO GOD and that it will GO back to him . God owns everything and when 1 WATCHES the animal die it is to remind him that the flesh and life belongs to God and that one SHOULD BE READY TO give up his life/flesh if GOD asked him/her to do so.
IN ISLAM the animal GIVES HUMAN beings MANY benefits and its BLOOD and flesh HAVE NO STATUS in islam EXCEPT THAT its flesh is digested and its flesh is used to carry people
islam NEVER SPIRITUALIZED /or turned dead flesh of ANIMAL into IDOL
ISLAM never said that go THROUGH /use as INTERMEDIary THE flesh /blood of the animal
islam is not pagan judaism and christianity.
the jews gotta WATCH an INNOCENT animal DIE slowly so they could REMIND themselves that an INNOCENT animal will lose its SINLESS life in a matter of seconds and that the animal is a REPLACEment for their sinful lives. so judaism also bigs up on the ANIMALS innocent LIFE AND makes the ANIMAL special coz they thing its life , not is flesh and blood has atonement powers. NONE OF THIS jewish invented ritual is to be FOUND In the islam
ppl, innocent BABIES die every second , does the jew really need a innocent lamb to remind themselves of their sinful lives when babies DIE this minute.
GOD OWNS everything and everything returns to Him
SO a god returning his battered and bruised meat/flesh makes no sense because NOTHING was given up considering that even when the meat was taking a battering the spirit was split up /divided in trinity and turned it into a 2 person god. LOL
did the 100 % human RETURN his 100 % human SPIRIT to the 3 persons in spirit?
did the 100 % human GIVE up his 100 % human flesh to the 3 persons in spirit?
did 100 % /complete god give up to 100 % complete god?
if the spirit could be SEPERATED why represent “seperation” through a roman drubbing of meat? i see people dying worse than jezuooz.
sacrifice is to give up
give up and ONLY hope that you will get better in the next life
Hey Mansubzero
Are you a Muslim? And if not what exactly do you believe? Your language is a joke you’re not frightening any Christians you know, we are who we are and you may not agree but you are going to have to sort that out.
That’s your problem if the death burial and resurrection gets up your nose, just deal with it.
Judaism is not Paganism they are monotheistic than you!
I think a pagan is someone who kisses religious object (s) perform rituals like throwing stones at a symbol of Satan, running up and down between a couple of hills, walking around a pagan building, have signs of the zodiac on their coins.
First of all, you are not answering any question mansubzero brings up on sacrifice ! You are clearly avoiding them, as you have no answer to give I suppose.
Next you are bringing up totally unrelated issues like having signs of zodiac on coins !
What does zodiac signs got to do with Islam ? Does Islam prescribe engraving Zodiac signs on coins ? You are totally nuts.
********
And you said “I think a pagan is someone who kisses religious object (s) “.
You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. (Luke 7:45)
According to you a pagan is someone who kisses religious objects. So here according to you, the woman becomes a pagan as she is kissing a religious object (Jesus). Now what about the person who encouraged kissing of a religious object (s) and expected more people to do the same ? It’s clear from Luke 7:44,45, that Jesus expected Simon to kiss him, but Simon being a non pagan abstained from it. But what about the man who encouraged kissing ? Shouldn’t he be the greatest pagan of all times ?
The Prophet Muhammad never encouraged kissing of any stone !!
********
//throwing stones at a symbol of Satan//
And I will put enmity between you (serpent) and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel. (Genesis 3:15)
The biblical god here curses the serpent (symbol of satan – as not all king cobras and vipers we find today are misleading people) and tells him that the human beings shall bruise his head. (even by throwing stones, one can hurt the symbol of satan)
Now the question is, how much pagan is the biblical god according to defendchrist ?
********
//walking around a pagan building//
In the inner sanctuary he made A PAIR OF CHERUBIM OF OLIVE WOOD, each ten cubitsl high. One wing of the first cherub was five cubits long, and the other wing five cubits—ten cubits from wing tip to wing tip. The second cherub also measured ten cubits, for the two cherubim were identical in size and shape. The height of each cherub was ten cubits. He placed the cherubim INSIDE THE INNERMOST ROOM OF THE TEMPLE, with their wings spread out. The wing of one cherub touched one wall, while the wing of the other touched the other wall, and their wings touched each other in the middle of the room. He overlaid the cherubim with gold.
On the walls all around the temple, in both the inner and outer rooms, he CARVED CHERUBIM, palm trees and open flowers. He also covered the floors of both the inner and outer rooms of the temple with gold.
For the entrance of the inner sanctuary he made doors of olive wood with five-sided jambs. And on the two olive wood doors he carved cherubim, palm trees and open flowers, and overlaid the cherubim and palm trees with beaten gold. In the same way he made four-sided jambs of olive wood for the entrance to the main hall. He also made two pine doors, each having two leaves that turned in sockets. He CARVED CHERUBIM, palm trees and open flowers on them and overlaid them with gold hammered evenly over the carvings. (1 Kings 6:23-35)
So we are clear that the temple of Solomon housed idols, which makes it a pagan building.
So if circumambulating a structure is paganism, then Jews are worthy to be called pagans, cause that is one of their rituals too.
I wash my hands in innocence and go around your altar, O LORD (Psalms 26:6)
Raba said to R. Isaac the son of Rabbah b. bar Hana, Come, O Son of the Law, and I will tell you of an excellent statement which your father made. With reference to what we have learnt, ‘Every day THEY WALKED AROUND THE ALTAR ONCE, and on that day THEY WENT ROUND SEVEN times’, your father citing R. Eleazar stated, [This was done] with the lulab.
(Talmud Mas. Sukkah)
The Kaaba was first constructed a house for monotheism, not of paganism, but the Jewish temple was first constructed a structure of paganism.
********
Then running up and down between hills ! How that should be paganism I cannot imagine telling, unless one is so very much deluded and desperate to say something for the sake of saying !!
********
Hi Ursa Major
Mansubzero and I have a little history on these blogs I don’t take kindly to people speaking with disrespect and using language bordering on swearing, which is just good enough.
And so I don’t answer his questions.
I will ask you this though because a part of the reason I come on these blogs is understand a bit more about Islam.
In have heard that in Islamic teaching that everyone is born sinless and so I want to know the reason why we die.
And sinless babies are born without limbs and lost of sight because they are meant to be sinless.
What babies born with a disease.
One other thing where were Adam and Eve created because I’m sure a Muslim responded on a blog and said after they sinned they came down to earth is this true?
**just not good enough** his language
Hi Mansubzero
Why are Muslims sacrificing for what is the purpose?
Hi defendchrist,
You and your rather more atheistic brother have been answered on Paul Williams’ blog. Please refer to the post we have been discussing in. Thanks.
defendchrist,
Although I don’t know why you are infesting this blog and Paul Williams’ blog with your repeated questions, I will, God willing, answer you here once and for all.
“Why are Muslims sacrificing for what is the purpose?”
Do you still not know what “Muslim” means? One who submits to God and obeys God in whatever He commands.
So, God TESTED Abraham with slaughtering his son as a TEST for his Islam and trust in God that He would never let his slaves down, and Abraham and his son passed the test, so God rewarded them by making us remember and commemorate this incident of absolute submission to God.
Also, it is to share the meat with other poor people. ursamajoris has already clarified that none of the meat or blood reaches God, but only our piety and submission do.
Our repentance and forgiveness do not depend on this annual sacrifice since only the able and wealthy can afford it.
It has nothing to do with your unjust concept of Atonement whereby an innocent man is killed for others’ sins.
Now, you have repeated this question about a dozen times, so I suggest that you stop acting as if you can’t understand it, or else you will not be answered.
Thanks.
//Mansubzero and I have a little history on these blogs I don’t take kindly to people speaking with disrespect and using language bordering on swearing, which is just good enough.
And so I don’t answer his questions.//
You didn’t answer my questions either !! So saying that you won’t answer mansubzero is clear avoidance due to lack of any sensible answer from your holy (?) book.
These were some of the questions I had asked in my previous reply :
But what about the man who encouraged kissing ? Shouldn’t he be the greatest pagan of all times ?
Now the question is, how much pagan is the biblical god according to defendchrist ?
Do go through the context in my previous reply and answer them.
********
//I will ask you this though because a part of the reason I come on these blogs is understand a bit more about Islam. In have heard that in Islamic teaching that everyone is born sinless and so I want to know the reason why we die.//
He is the one who created death and life in order that He may try which of you is best in deeds, and He is the Exalted, the Forgiving. (Qur’an 67: 2)
Death and life were created to test which of us are best in deeds. Life brings us to this platform on Earth so that we may be tested by Allah through trials like :
And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient, (Qur’an 2:155)
And death ends our life here so that we will be tried in the hereafter by Allah through questioning. Those who were best in deeds on Earth will inherit paradise in the hereafter.
I would also like to know the reason why Christians die, because their holy (?) book says :
The soul who sins is the one who will die (Ezekiel 18:20)
I see every Christian die after a definite period. Did Jesus not die properly on the cross ? Were your sins not taken away ?
********
//And sinless babies are born without limbs and lost of sight because they are meant to be sinless. What babies born with a disease.//
Different people are born with different disabilities. For one, you are with a disability to answer anything properly. So no person is born perfect. Each disability is a test from Allah.
********
// One other thing where were Adam and Eve created because I’m sure a Muslim responded on a blog and said after they sinned they came down to earth is this true?//
Then Adam received from his Lord [some] words, and He accepted his repentance. Indeed, it is He who is the Accepting of repentance, the Merciful.
We said, “Go down from it, all of you. And when guidance comes to you from Me, whoever follows My guidance – there will be no fear concerning them, nor will they grieve.
(Qur’an 2:37,38)
After Allah accepts Adam’s repentance, they were sent down to Earth again to be tested as to who will accept the guidance of Allah without hearing or seeing Him personally.
********
//Hi Mansubzero Why are Muslims sacrificing for what is the purpose?//
How many times should one answer you ? Already mansubzero has given his answer in one of his previous replies and I too have posted my answer twice for this question of yours. So when are you planning to read those answers ?
Hi Mansubzero
Why are you quoting 1st Kings 6:23-25 for
It was God who gave Moses the directions for building the Tabernacle
Exo 25:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Exo 25:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.
Exo 25:3 And this is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass,
Exo 25:4 And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats’ hair,
Exo 25:5 And rams’ skins dyed red, and badgers’ skins, and shittim wood,
Exo 25:6 Oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense,
Exo 25:7 Onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod, and in the breastplate.
Exo 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
Exo 25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.
Just so that you get it…
Exo 25:16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee.
Exo 25:17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof.
Exo 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
Exo 25:19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
Exo 25:20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
Exo 25:21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.
King Solomon was told by God how to build the temple.
2Ch 3:1 Then Solomon began to build the house of the LORD at Jerusalem in mount Moriah, where the LORD appeared unto David his father, in the place that David had prepared in the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.
2Ch 3:2 And he began to build in the second day of the second month, in the fourth year of his reign.
2Ch 3:3 Now these are the things wherein Solomon was instructed for the building of the house of God. The length by cubits after the first measure was threescore cubits, and the breadth twenty cubits.
Oh yeah by the way…I’m not a Jew!
Hi Muhammad
What son was Abraham tested by God? And why sacrifice animals if Abraham didnt actually kill his son?
Hi defendchrist,
A quick remark:
I am astonished by your childish behavior going around Muslim blogs asking the same questions.
//What son was Abraham tested by God?//
The consensus of Muslim scholars is that he was Ishmael.
//And why sacrifice animals if Abraham didnt actually kill his son?//
I answered you above. Please read more; ask less.
Here is what I said above:
Do you still not know what “Muslim” means? One who submits to God and obeys God in whatever He commands.
So, God TESTED Abraham with slaughtering his son as a TEST for his Islam and trust in God that He would never let his slaves down, and Abraham and his son passed the test, so God rewarded them by making us remember and commemorate this incident of absolute submission to God.
Also, it is to share the meat with other poor people. ursamajoris has already clarified that none of the meat or blood reaches God, but only our piety and submission do.
Our repentance and forgiveness do not depend on this annual sacrifice since only the able and wealthy can afford it.
It has nothing to do with your unjust concept of Atonement whereby an innocent man is killed for others’ sins.
**************
Another remark:
Your brother Ken and you have asked the same questions over and over again, and till now, by the permission of God, we have been answering you here and on Paul Williams’ blog, but you do not bother to read our answers.
//Hi Mansubzero Why are you quoting 1st Kings 6:23-25 for//
It was not mansubzero quoting. It was me quoting. Holy spirit always makes it a habit to quote wrong authors eh ?
Did any of the gibberish what you posted, even touch my question ?
I told you that the temple of Solomon was pagan right from the time it was built, and instead of answering it, you go around Moses and finally say that your god only asked Solomon to build it.
My reply was about the CHERUBS (idols, statues) in the temple (inner most room). Look at my reply where I posted the verses. So if your god had instructed carving out those cherubs (for which you never posted any evidence) your god must be the most pagan of all gods.
And finally nobody bothered to know whether you are a Jew or not ! Since you had laid claim to the Jews being monotheistic, I had to tell you all these.
Hi Muhammad
The reason I asked has nothing to do with being childish, Muslims tell it is Ishmael but your holy book the koran says no such thing.
Our bible says Isaac and people will argue otherwise but your book does not say Ishmael yet the koran is to suppose to as it says “makes things clearer” on this subject and has done no such thing.
And the other question is I thought the Torah was corrupted or is it only the parts that fit your religion are true.
So the question is not childish
To add to Muhammad Al-Hakeem’s reply to your questions.
//What son was Abraham tested by God? //
It was Ishmael.
*********
My Lord, grant me [a child] from among the righteous. So We gave him good tidings of a forbearing boy. And when he reached with him [the age of] exertion, he said, “O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I [must] sacrifice you, so see what you think.” He said, “O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast.”
And when they had both submitted and he put him down upon his forehead, We called to him, “O Abraham, You have fulfilled the vision.” Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.Indeed, this was the clear trial. And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice. (Qur’an 37:100-107)
Abraham asks God for a child. Good tidings of a forbearing son is given to him. And when the boy reached of age, he was taken to be sacrificed.
Now Isaac is mentioned in the subsequent verses of the Qur’an.
And We gave him good tidings of Isaac, a prophet from among the righteous. (Qur’an 37:112)
After the sacrificial event, good tidings of the birth of Isaac is being given to Abraham. (AND we gave him good tidings of Isaac) So it is clear from the Qur’anic narrative that Isaac was not the one taken to be sacrificed.
*********
//And why sacrifice animals if Abraham didnt actually kill his son?//
Ishmael was ransomed and Abraham ended up sacrificing an animal at last.
And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice. (Qur’an 37:107)
So we don’t sacrifice our sons like the pagans / pagan gods do. We sacrifice animals instead. And the purpose of this sacrifice is already given above numerous times.
Hi Muhammad
What is this “great” sacrifice of Sura 37:107? Because yet again the koran doesn’t explain.
“What son was Abraham tested by God? And why sacrifice animals if Abraham didnt actually kill his son?”
abraham was about to slaughter his son , but lo and behold , he slaughtered an INNOCENT animal.can you tell me how the act of SLAUGHTERING the animal MEANT THAt abraham , in his mind, thinking to himself that yhwh was going to create his flesh and get it kicked the hell out of and then get it hung on a cross? HOW WAS ABRAHAM thinking this? when the jews burnt MEAT of an animal, were they thinking that they were indirectly involved with beating up thier god yhwh? was abraham thinking that he was koing yhwh along with the romans ?
“And why sacrifice animals if Abraham didnt actually kill his son?”
you silly pagan, i don’t see how killing flesh of an animal has any connection with a god creating flesh and then appeasing/pleasing himself by violently beating the crap out of the flesh. why would a god want to use what he told the jews to do, ON his flesh?
//Hi Muhammad
What is this “great” sacrifice of Sura 37:107? Because yet again the koran doesn’t explain.//
And you before was wondering why I called you childish?!
//The reason I asked has nothing to do with being childish, Muslims tell it is Ishmael but your holy book the koran says no such thing.//
I think you should know: yo and your brother Ken have asked this question over a dozen times, and have been answered over a dozen times!!
Isn’t that childish to you?
//And the other question is I thought the Torah was corrupted or is it only the parts that fit your religion are true.//
Our approach to the Jewish and Christian scriptures is that we neither approve of or disapprove them, lest we end up approving of something that is the word of man, or disapproving something that is the original word of God.
And yes, only the parts that fit the Quran and fit LOGIC are true and are the original revelation from God.
We believe only in the ORIGINAL REVELATIONS of God, otherwise we wouldn’t be Muslims, since Muslims must believe in revelation.
//So the question is not childish//
Yes, it was. When you ask it that many times both on Paul Williams blog and here and be answered that many times, what do you call it? Childish.
In Islam, we are told either to say something of benefit or to shut up completely. Please take that advice.
//Our bible says Isaac//
Are you sure?
******
Actually in broader context there is more story of this passages that the Quran corrects obvious mistakes in the Bible regarding how many children did prophet Abraham (p) have..
Is it?
One son
“And He said, “Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac , and go to the land of Moriah; and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you.” (Genesis 22:2)
Or
Two sons
“For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.” (Galatians 4:22)
Christian apologist love to use ridiculous excuse that accusing the mother of Ishmael being a bonds woman,so Ishmael was not a legitimate son.
These people seems ignorant that Hagar is a legitimate wife of Abraham: “And Sarah Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.” (Genesis 16:3)
Further proof is that both are legitimate son
“Then his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him (Abraham) in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, facing Mamre,” (Genesis 25:9)
The Quran being the final revealation from God pure from human tampering corrects this mistake in Surat 37 Aş-Şāffāt سورة الصافات (Those who set the Ranks) – as follows:
[Quran 37:99] And [then] he said, “Indeed, I will go to [where I am ordered by] my Lord; He will guide me.
[Quran 37:100] My Lord, grant me [a child] from among the righteous.”
[Quran 37:101] So We gave him good tidings of a forbearing boy.
[Quran 37:102] And when he reached with him [the age of] exertion, he said, “O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I [must] sacrifice you, so see what you think.” He said, “O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast.”
[Quran 37:103] They both submitted, and he put his forehead down (to sacrifice him).
[Quran 37:104] We called him: “O Abraham.
[Quran 37:105] You have fulfilled the vision.” Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
[Quran 37:106] Indeed, this was the clear TRIAL..
[Quran 37:107] And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice.
[Quran 37:108] And we PRESERVED his history for SUBSEQUENT GENERATIONS.
[Quran 37:109] Peace be upon Abraham.
[Quran 37:110] Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
[Quran 37:111] Indeed, he was of Our believing servants.
[Quran 37:112] And We gave him good tidings of Isaac, a prophet from among the righteous.
[Quran 37:113] And We blessed him and Isaac. But among their descendants is the doer of good and the clearly unjust to himself.
Thus, the Quran shows Abraham indeed bore two sons, Ishmael and Isaac
*******
From: http://panggilantauhid.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/missionary-on-twisting-quran-37107-and-how-many-sons-did-prophet-abraham-peace-be-upon-him-have/
Hi Muhammad
You said this…
Our repentance and forgiveness do not depend on this annual sacrifice since only the able and wealthy can afford it.
It has nothing to do with your unjust concept of Atonement whereby an innocent man is killed for others’ sins.
Unjust concept…
Sura 4:157 you what it says and I know that there are several stories / traditions that are in Islamic teaching that someone else took the place of Jesus on the cross, and that was done by Allah yet we don’t what the real story is.
It seems that the confusion is with you guys you don’t even know what happened by own book yet claimed the event didnt happen…you are the ones following conjuncture.
How can you have so many different stories to an event that didnt happen to a particular person and yet can say who it happened to…comfusion.
Hi Muhammad
I believe Abraham had two sons but the issue here is God gave Abraham a promise of offspring and Abraham and Sarah took matters into their own hands.
This is the girl Hagar comes into the story, the promise is through promised chid which Isaac and the child Ishmael is a son but not the one promised.
Just so you get the picture…
Exodus 2:24-25: “…and God remembered his covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So God looked on the sons of Israel and God took notice.”
2 Kings 13:23: “But Jehovah was gracious unto them and had compassion upon them and turned to them because of his covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”
Psalms 105:7-10: “He is Jehovah our God. His judgement are in all the earth. He has remembered his covenant even forever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations, the covenant which he concluded with Abraham, And his sworn statement to Isaac, And which statement he kept standing as a statue even to Jacob, As an everlasting covenant to Israel.”
And then from your own book…in different translations
In harmony with the above stated Covenant, Surah 29:27 affirms that the Prophethood will remain in the lineage of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Given below are four different translations:
Surah 29:27: And (as for Abraham), We bestowed upon him Isaac and (Isaac’s son) Jacob, and caused prophethood and revelation to continue among his offspring. (Asad)
And We bestowed on him Isaac and Jacob, and We established the prophethood and the Scripture among his seed. (Pickthall)
And We granted him Ishaq and Yaqoub, and caused the prophethood and the book to remain in his seed. (Shakir)
And We bestowed Ishaq and Yaqub to him, and kept the Prophethood and the Book among his descendants. (Faridul Haque)
And some further proof from your own book…
Surah 45:16: And verily We gave the Children of Israel the Scripture and the Command and the Prophethood, and provided them with good things and favoured them above all peoples. (Pickthall)
Surah 2:47: “O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you and how I preferred you to (all) creatures.” (Pickthall)
Something else to consider before I go…
Surah 33:40: “Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the messenger of Allah and the Seal of the Prophets.” (Pickthall)
What does the seal of the prophets mean? It doesn’t mean Muhammad is the last one.
Then what it mean?
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 4, Number 189:
Narrated By As Saib bin Yazid: My aunt took me to the Prophet and said, “O Allah’s Apostle! This son of my sister has got a disease in his legs.” So he passed his hands on my head and prayed for Allah’s blessings for me; then he performed ablution and I drank from the remaining water. I stood behind him and saw the seal of Prophethood between his shoulders, and it was like the “Zir-al-Hijla” (means the button of a small tent, but some said ‘egg of a partridge.’ etc.)
Sahih Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 70, Number 574:
Narrated By As-Sa’ib: My aunt took me to Allah’s Apostle and said, “O Allah’s Apostle! My nephew is- ill.” The Prophet touched my head with his hand and invoked Allah to bless me. He then performed ablution and I drank of the remaining water of his ablution and then stood behind his back and saw “Khatam An-Nubuwwa” (The Seal of Prophethood) between his shoulders like a button of a tent.
Sunan of Abu Dawud, Book 32, Number 4071:
Narrated Qurrah ibn Iyas al-Muzani: “I came to the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) with a company of Muzaynah and we swore allegiance to him. The buttons of his shirt were open. I swore allegiance to him and I put my hand inside the collar of his shirt and felt the seal…”
It is “conjecture” and “confusion.”
Red herrings.
Advice: In Islam, we are told either to say something of benefit or to shut up completely. Please take that advice.
You seem obsessed with what happened on the cross, when the Quran gives you what matters: Jesus was NOT the one crucified; nothing else matters.
Still, unjust, barbaric concept of God’s justice and forgiveness.
//Sura 4:157 you what it says and I know that there are several stories / traditions that are in Islamic teaching that someone else took the place of Jesus on the cross, and that was done by Allah yet we don’t what the real story is. It seems that the confusion is with you guys you don’t even know what happened by own book yet claimed the event didnt happen…you are the ones following conjuncture. How can you have so many different stories to an event that didnt happen to a particular person and yet can say who it happened to…comfusion.//
*********
We get the answers for whom was appointed for sacrifice by name from the hadeeths.
. . . Mu’awiyah said: I am the expert you need; We were at the Prophet’s when a bedouin came to him saying “O Prophet of God, I have left the pasture dry and the life hard, the children died and the wealth is gone, so give me (something) of what God has bestowed on you, O Son of the two sacrificed.” The Prophet smiled and did not blame/criticize what he said. The people asked: Who are the two sacrificed O Commander of the believers? He replied: When Abdul Muttalib was ordered to dig Zamzam he vowed to sacrifice one of his sons if God helps him with his mission. When he achieved the mission, he cast lots on his children, there were ten of them. The choice fell on Abdullah so he decided to sacrifice him but the child’s uncles, Banu Makhzum, opposed the sacrifice and said satisfy your Lord and ransom your son. So, he ransomed him with a hundred camels. Mu’awiyah said: this is one [of the two Sacrificed] the other is Ishmael.
(Al Hakim’s Mustadrak)
*********
Since the Prophet Muhammad was appointed to clarify people on the Qur’an, he has explained to us with his actions the name of the child of Abraham who was taken to the sacrifice – and that was Ishmael.
So we follow the explanation of the Prophet Muhammad and conclude that it is Ishmael and not simply by conjecture like the man worshippers who worship flesh, without the flesh ever telling them that it was god !
*********
It seems you are the one confused like hell. On one hand you tell that you are here to learn about Islam. And on the other you sound so cocksure that we have no proof to say that it was Ishmael and accuse us of following conjecture. What’s your problem ?
You are mentally retarded.
I’ve posted you the proof from Al Mustadrak – one of the famous hadeeth books. And you were sure that we didn’t have any proofs. Now what ?
//Surah 29:27: And (as for Abraham), We bestowed upon him Isaac and (Isaac’s son) Jacob, and caused prophethood and revelation to continue among his offspring. (Asad)//
Yes Allah continued appointing prophets for the children of Israel. How does that mean that prophets will come only in the lineage of the Children of Israel ?
You are totally messed up.
Rain continued to fall in Haiti last December. Does it mean that rain will fall only in Haiti and not in any other part of the entire world ? Your interpretations are outright foolish.
*********
//And some further proof from your own book…
Surah 45:16: And verily We gave the Children of Israel the Scripture and the Command and the Prophethood, and provided them with good things and favoured them above all peoples. //
FAVOURED – PAST TENSE.
PROVIDED – PAST TENSE
GAVE – PAST TENSE
That means, it was not going to continue after the Qur’an and the Prophet Muhammad. The Children of Israel are no more favoured, are no more provided and no more scriptures “only” meant for them.
*********
//What does the seal of the prophets mean? It doesn’t mean Muhammad is the last one.
Then what it mean?/// And goes on to quote a few hadeeths.
Statement : He is a gem of a man.
Interpretation : It does not mean he is a good man. An oyster excreted him. He stayed inside a shell for a few years shut tight without air, and he is now the product of that – a gem.
Foolish foolish interpretations of the human worshipping pagan.
*********
Hi Ken,
Regarding the Hadeeths and Quran 33:40
A grave mistake when somebody ignorant like you about Arabic:
In Quran 33:40, it is “Khātam an-NABIYYEEN” which means “the Seal of the PROPHETS” which means in Arabic “the END of the Prophets.”
In the Hadeeths, it is “Khātam an-NUBUWWAH” where “Khātam” here means “the MARK of Prophethood,” i.e., one of the signs of being a prophet. It was a protruding mark on his skin.
Just a piece of advice before I go:
Please don’t get yourself into things you have no knowledge of.
Thanks.
The verses you quoted are about the Israelites in their times. Similarly, the Quran in 3:110 describes the Muslim Ummah of Prophet Muhammad (p) (the Muslims of this time) as “the best nation sent out to humanity,” but under the condition that “they enjoin good and forbid evil.” The Quran isn’t ethnocentric but judges people according to God’s criteria OBJECTIVELY.
Here are some verses from the Quran condemning the Israelites for what they do:
2:83
And [recall] when We took the covenant from the Children of Israel, [enjoining upon them], “Do not worship except Allah; and to parents do good and to relatives, orphans, and the needy. And speak to people good [words] and establish prayer and give zakah.” Then you turned away, except a few of you, and you were refusing.
2:211
Ask the Children of Israel how many a sign of evidence We have given them. And whoever exchanges the favor of Allah [for disbelief] after it has come to him – then indeed, Allah is severe in penalty.
2:246
Have you not considered the assembly of the Children of Israel after [the time of] Moses when they said to a prophet of theirs, “Send to us a king, and we will fight in the way of Allah”? He said, “Would you perhaps refrain from fighting if fighting was prescribed for you?” They said, “And why should we not fight in the cause of Allah when we have been driven out from our homes and from our children?” But when fighting was prescribed for them, they turned away, except for a few of them. And Allah is Knowing of the wrongdoers.
5:32
Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.
5:70
We had already taken the covenant of the Children of Israel and had sent to them messengers. Whenever there came to them a messenger with what their souls did not desire, a party [of messengers] they denied, and another party they killed.
5:78
Cursed were those who disbelieved among the Children of Israel by the tongue of David and of Jesus, the son of Mary. That was because they disobeyed and [habitually] transgressed.
5:110
[The Day] when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, “This is not but obvious magic.”
7:138
And We took the Children of Israel across the sea; then they came upon a people intent in devotion to [some] idols of theirs. They said, “O Moses, make for us a god just as they have gods.” He said, “Indeed, you are a people behaving ignorantly.
10:93
And We had certainty settled the Children of Israel in an agreeable settlement and provided them with good things. And they did not differ until [after] knowledge had come to them. Indeed, your Lord will judge between them on the Day of Resurrection concerning that over which they used to differ.
27:76
Indeed, this Qur’an relates to the Children of Israel most of that over which they disagree.
61:6
And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, “O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad.” But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, “This is obvious magic.”
***********
The Quran is objective and judges people by why they do.
**********
Also your bible condemns the Israelites:
People of lies: Jeremiah 8:5, Micah 6:11, Amos 8:4, etc.
Slander: Jeremiah 9:3, Jeremiah 6:28
Betrayal: Is there a greater story of betrayal than Joseph’s brothers? Anyway, here are some more verses about how treacherous the Jews are: Isaiah 21:2, Isaiah 24:16, Zephaniah 3:4
Conspiracy: Jeremiah 11:9-10, Ezekiel 22:25
Trickery: Back to Micah 6:11-12, Amos 8:4-5, etc.
Killers of Prophets: 1 Kings 13:18-32; 1 Kings 18:3-4
Consumers of Usury: Ezekiel 22:12
Consumers of Bribes: Isaiah 1:23
Witchcraft: I dealt with this here.
Rejecting prophets they do not like: Jeremiah 8:9, Ezekiel 20:13, Amos 2:4
Cruelty towards fellow Jews: Jeremiah 9:3, Ezekiel 33:26, Habakkuk 2:15
Lack of Justice towards employees and slaves: Jeremiah 34:8-11
********
You, defendchrist, is such a racist!
The “descendants” in Quran 29:27 refers to the descendants of ABRAHAM and not Isaac and Jacob only, i.e., through both Isaac and Ishmael.
Hi Muhammad
If you answer something just say you don’t know the crucifixion is one of the major things in Christianity and yes I need to know the Muslim position on this don’t just give us one unexplained verse and expect us to believe you.
You are the ones who are obsessed you have one verse in your whole book on the koran that you can’t fully explain.
I asked one muslim who was it that said…we have killed the Messiah Jesus! And the Muslim said why does it matter?
I asked who said…the messenger of Allah?
You said this…
Still, unjust, barbaric concept of God’s justice and forgiveness.
It was Allah that was supposed to have changed the person and let them kill an innocent man right?
1. Islam does not deny there was a cross event.
2. Islam does not deny someone was crucified
So in Islamic theology it was your god your played a part in the innocent being crucified.
Sura 19:15
Pickthall
Peace on him the day he was born, and the day he dieth and the day he shall be raised alive!
Sura 19:33
Pickthall
Peace on me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I shall be raised alive!
This is quite interesting because the first reference is to John the Baptist and the second is to Jesus, but as far as you are concerned he didn’t die.
So can you explain the true sequence because surely this is wrong I mean Jesus is meant to come back and judge isn’t this when everything ends and heaven is home for some and hell for others.
So basically we are half way through the sentence so according to the KORAN WHEN DOES JESUS DIE?
Hi Ursa Major
You said this…
*********
It seems you are the one confused like hell. On one hand you tell that you are here to learn about Islam. And on the other you sound so cocksure that we have no proof to say that it was Ishmael and accuse us of following conjecture. What’s your problem ?
You are mentally retarded.
I’ve posted you the proof from Al Mustadrak – one of the famous hadeeth books. And you were sure that we didn’t have any proofs. Now what ?
When were the Hadith written?
It’s not that I am cocksure it’s what Muslims have told me, I debated with a Muslim a couple of days ago and he said the Hadith are not even real but a bunch of lies.
Hi Muhammad
You said this…
A grave mistake when somebody ignorant like you about Arabic:
In Quran 33:40, it is “Khātam an-NABIYYEEN” which means “the Seal of the PROPHETS” which means in Arabic “the END of the Prophets.”
In the Hadeeths, it is “Khātam an-NUBUWWAH” where “Khātam” here means “the MARK of Prophethood,” i.e., one of the signs of being a prophet. It was a protruding mark on his skin.
Just a piece of advice before I go:
Please don’t get yourself into things you have no knowledge of.
The problem with that Muhammad is not the end of or the last prophet because Jesus is the last prophet…he’s not dead…and secondly Muhammad doesn’t qualify as a prophet.
One of the signs of a prophet…a mole on the back! Did Jesus or Moses have this? Or is this something unique to Muhammad?
We don’t need to KNOW Arabic to realise a lie when we read one, and you Muslims have got one thing right Jesus is coming back to judge.
I got a question for you…if Muhammad is the greatest prophet and brought the right message why is the Anti-Christ (great enemy of God on earth) called antiChrist and not called the Anti-Muhammad?
Reply to DefendtheChrist
Your arguement about” Why Muslims say Allah would get Innocent Prophet killed when Islam believes another innocent man was substatuted and Killed on Cross.
Response: Wrong no verse in Quran or Authentic Hadith, states another Man was Killed, there have only been speculation in commentary.
Rather the Quran says” it was made to appear that He Jesus was Killed. But they killed him not nor cruicified sureh 4-157
In otherwords it is possible, that Allah cloned another fake body of Jesus and the fake body was killed while the real invisible Jesus stood by and Laughed next to the Cross thinking they killed the real Jesus, rather what they killed was a fake dumy of Jesus image. And the Dummy Image is not real it could just possibly be a empty shell body. Now you may say well it was still alive therefore innocent? My Response would be” sure Allah has the power to make anything seem like its alive. Like when Moses stick looked like a live sneak to Pharoah when in fact it was just part of Tricking the Eyes. Therefore No – innocent person died here. In fact A Early Christian Bible banned from the Canon narrates a Similiar Story called the Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter:
That says” The one they put to the cross os his fleshy part put to shame, but the one standing next to the Cross glad and laughing is the living Jesus.
Proof: http://gnosis.org/naghamm/apopet.html
Even a Christian Apologetics website claims Jesus has the power to look fake or disguise himself and veil his real self, and take on the image of sombody else read the second last paragraph:
http://www.gotquestions.org/recognize-resurrected-Jesus.html
You then asserted that the Prophet is not the Final messenger because Jesus will come after the Prophet.
Response:
Hadith Tabari clearly states Prophet Muhammed pbuh is Last and final Prophet and Messenger:
Proof: http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/muhammad__peace_be_upon_him__is_the_last_prophet_and_messenger
Next Question how can Muhammed be the Final Prophet if Jesus will come again after Prophet Muhammed?
Response: http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/does_jesus___peace_be_upon_him__return_mean_that_muhammad__peace_be_upon_him__is_not_the_final_prophet_
He said: Quran claims Jesus died.
Response: Wrong. The Quran says the day i die, not the day i died. Hence its speaking about passed tense. That Jesus in his second coming will live natural life then die a natural death.
Jesus die in Quran.
Ask Christian where did Jesus die exact place. Like on cross or fell off a horse?
Quran 4-157 Jesus neither (killed) nor cruicified.
Can you explain to us Mr Sheik of Quran?
Sureh 3:54 says i will cause you to die.
Notice it doesnt say Died.
With (d) on the end.
Its refering to Jesus second coming. Meaning he hasnt died yet but will die in (future tense ) read tefsir ibn Kathir.
Allah raised him to heaven. Allah can raise a person to heaven meaning fly to heaven. Without death. 4:158
Will send him back. Second coming.
Hadith proof; musnad ahmed
Will live and die
Natural death.
Proof: sureh 3:54
And Hadith musnad Ahmed.
Read:
http://www.discoveringislam.org/return_of_jesus.htm
He then said” Can you prove Jesus and Moses had a mole on there back as this is the sign of Prophecy since Muhammed had it
Response: The absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence, i could argue prove to me that Moses and Jesus didnt have a mole on there back can you? So the arguement can back fire.
Next: You said how come the Anti Christ is not called Anti-Muhammed Rather Anti-Christ?
Response: Christ means Messiah or Annointed therefore since the Anti-Christ Dajjal will claim to me a Messiah for why he is called Anti-Messiah Meaning a False Messiah. Nothing to do with Prophet Muhammed or Jesus. Therefore being a Fake Messiah is Auto-Matically being Anti-Religion and Anti-Prophet
Hi
Why do Muslims not tell the truth about what Christians
He said: Quran claims Jesus died.
Response: Wrong. The Quran says the day i die, not the day i died. Hence its speaking about passed tense. That Jesus in his second coming will live natural life then die a natural death.
Can I say something here Jesus is speaking of something that will happen in future…he was a baby when he spoke this, so we have every right to believe that his death happened 32 years later…
Why would Jesus as a baby say…the day I died? That does not make sense…in the text he is a baby so any talk of death will be in the future.
Then we have some Muslim Hollywood..fake body what are you talking about?
In otherwords it is possible, that Allah cloned another fake body of Jesus and the fake body was killed while the real invisible Jesus stood by and Laughed next to the Cross thinking they killed the real Jesus, rather what they killed was a fake dumy of Jesus image. And the Dummy Image is not real it could just possibly be a empty shell body. Now you may say well it was still alive therefore innocent?
Too right you can mention the Gnostic writings your Koran has them in it…prove me wrong!