Category Archives: CL Edwards/ Calling Muslims

Sam Shamoun, Anthony Rogers & Radical Moderate Perverted Statements.

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ,

Recently I exchanged a few comments with Anthony Rogers, Sam Shamoun and their friend Radical Moderate on an Apologetic Christian’s website. This is the advice that Radical Moderate, with the approval of Sam Shamoun and Anthony Rogers, gave to me:

I apologize to our younger readers for having to read these statements, but the purpose of this post is to show the mindset of these Christians. Not only is such a statement perverse and morally despicable to tell a young man, I find it really disheartening to see the kind of thoughts that these old men entertain. They are all almost double my age and I must that these comments were extremely inappropriate. In fact Sam Shamoun saw it fit to explain to Radical Moderate how to spell the word ‘whore’ in Arabic, in the same comments thread:

In the end, the result is that these Christian missionaries are promoting sodomy, sexual abuse with a person of the same gender and at the end of the day, they have learned how to spell, “whore/ prostitute” in the Arabic language. If this is the low level of discussion these people can sink to, I am truly sorry for the state of Christianity today. However, as it stands, I refuse to give into their sexual advances and I hope and pray that no other young person, whether male or female has to face such online sexual abuse from these gentlemen.

If you or someone you know has also faced sexual advances or any other form of inappropriate sexual comments, from any of these men please report it as soon as possible:

People of this nature tend to prey online and we should not be afraid to speak out against their actions. Soliciting young teens, and children as they are doing to me, can also happen to your kids who try to seek advice from them. They hold positions in the community that allow them to be alone and interact with young persons and this should not be allowed, they should be monitored. I discuss theology with them, do debates with them and while the abuse and insults are common from them and while I can handle the insults:

It is the soliciting of sex online, with someone half their age and of the same sex which is disturbing and shocking to say the least. While I am sure they will claim they are “joking” or were just trying to be “insulting”, they have definitely gone beyond simple banter and reached the realms of sexual perversion. It should also be known that the poster of the comment, named Radical Moderate also has numerous unauthorized audio recordings and conversations that he has had with me and that I have had with others. Although I have blocked him and at the time of many of the voice recordings, he was banned from the chat room I frequent, yet he was still able to record my voice. He is works as a computer technician and may have used his skills to bypass the ban on the chat room to subsequently record my statements. I am honestly appalled by his actions.

Anthony added to the conversation not too long after, I couldn’t get a screenshot with his name in it due to the length of the comment, but this is what he stated:

I have no idea what my ‘loins’ have to do with him making a video and why it promises to be painful, but if I take his comments in line with his friend, Radical Moderate’s comment (pictured above), then this is beyond sexually perverse. I’m not sure if I should even continue to check the comments they are posting, it’s only getting worse as time progresses. If this is the kind of violent, sadistic, sexually barbaric acts that these men can speak about openly in the public domain about, I am very afraid for what they are capable of doing to young kids in their presence.

You can read more on what their Scripture, the Bible, says on sexually abusing others here, as well as more threats and sexual advances by Sam Shamoun & Anthony Rogers’ friends here:

Br. Ijaz Ahmad.
wa Allaahu Alam.
[and Allaah knows best].

Refutation: Reply to the Muslim blogger about rightly dividing the Bible

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ,

After bringing Chessie Edwards’ attention to my response, he took the initiative to reply in a new post on his blog. I’d like to thank him for continuing to draw Christian viewership to our website and we pray he continues to do so in the future. Unfortunately, as expected from Biblical Evangelists, Chessie began his response with mockery and insults:

Unfortunately the god of the unregenerate is Satan who is far from having any Rahma


I’m not really sure how his opening statement really answers me or in what way it was relevant to the topic at hand, I’ll leave the floor open for Chessie to address that. If this was his idea of building anticipation for what the rest of his blog post will present, I’m not very much looking forward to it. In any case, let’s examine his claims:

Actually that’s not what I said, I said ” Christ being “sinless”is beyond mere moral conduct it has to do with nature.”. This is just one testament to the Muslim bloggers many reading errors, he seems to see what he would like a text to say, instead of what it really says..he uses the same faulty hermeneutic with the Bible.  My Christology which I believe is orthodox, is Christ did not become sinless by living a sinless life(his not sinning is not the cause of him being a sinless man), He didn’t sin because he was by nature sinless(his sinless nature was the cause of his sinless life).  I did not say Christ sinless behavior had nothing to do with why we consider Him sinless, I said our doctrine go’s beyond that. I am sure the blogger will ignore what I just said and decide I said whatever he feels I said. Yet to fair minded Muslims, know such details are not minor, they are major in Christian Theology.

We agree with Chessie when he says Christ’s nature is to be sinless, which is why I am puzzled when he says I took his statements out of context. Recall from my previous response where I said:

I couldn’t agree more, it’s finally good to see him accepting the Islamic position of all children being born upon the “fitrah” or “pure nature”.

The fitrah or “pure nature” means that a child is born with a clean slate, free of influences, no record, completely new to the word, not a single penalty against the child. When he says this, I am in full agreement:

 He didn’t sin because he was by nature sinless(his sinless nature was the cause of his sinless life).

We also believe as Muslims that the Anbiya (Prophets) are sinless in Islam. So again, I see no reason for him to state that we disagree with his premises. Perhaps he was just finishing for an argument, but I shall not take his bait. He continues:

Christians believe as the Bible teaches that Christ had two natures, His Divinity and the second undefiled human nature He took on. As I clearly explained in the quote, Christ was never contaminated with the sin nature that effects the rest of humanity(or maybe the blogger thinks humans don’t sin?). The Islamic doctrine of fitrah has nothing to do with anything I said , but again the blogger sees what he wants to see.

Some questions need to be asked here:

  • Where does the NT teach the hypostatic union, i..e that Christ has two natures?
  • That Christs’ nature was undefiled (as we know Christ was abandoned by God on the cross, does God abandon sinless persons, but aids sinful persons?).
  • The Fitrah is the nature of being born pure, without sin, how does this have nothing to do with Christ being born free of sin?

In an odd way, he then decides to demonstrate original sin is actually from the Qur’an and not the Bible by posting an article link which I refuted many months ago, which you can read here, “Proving Original Sin from the Qur’an“. Yet the question still stands, can Chessie Edwards ever prove the Original Sin from the Bible? He’s demonstrated that either he cannot read or doesn’t want to fully answer the question. Chessie continues:

We see this from the blogger, he doesn’t have the time to deal with what I(or others) are saying, that would get in the way of him making his point(weather his point has anything to do with Christian doctrine or not). Obviously he gets this from his god who makes all sorts of theological errors in addressing Christians in the Quran. See the following article from bother Sam Shamoun.

Well, now I’m a bit confused:

  • I quote Chessie’s article on my website.
  • Chessie goes to my websites and quotes my quote of him.
  • Chessie writes a response based on my quote of him.

Chessie literally quoted himself and responds to it. I’m not sure if he confused himself, but he seriously quoted himself and then attempted to refute the quote by saying it was nonsensical, made up etc. I’m not sure whether to laugh or cry out of pity. He then decided to link to Sam Shamoun’s article, which is refuted here by Br. Bassam Zawadi. Mr. Edwards continues:

The blogger is off in la la land, I am not sure why he didn’t see ” All the promises, types and shadows in the old Testament pointed to the Messiah “, why doesn’t he get ” All the promises, types and shadows in the old Testament pointed to the Messiah” is what I am saying is beyond mere moralism? If the blogger obeyed the moral commands or even ritual commands of the Law(The blogger seems to not know the word Law is used many different ways in the Bible, and there many aspects to the Mosaic commands.. a whole other subject) would that mean he now would fulfill ” All the promises, types and shadows in the old Testament …” ?

As explained in my previous response, and as explained in the video by Rabbi Michael Skobac, there were many Messiahs prophesied by in the Tanach, however according to the Tanach itself, there is no “The Messiah” to come. Of course, this is where we as Muslims would disagree as we do believe ‘Aissa [alayhi as salaam] was the Masih (Christ), but we do agree with the understanding that the Tanach (corrupted as it is), does not point to “a” Messiah.  In fact, if one would notice, he doesn’t reference a single prophecy or promise of the Bible this time. The reason being that I refuted his quote of Isaiah (Yeshayahu) by presenting the Hebrew version as opposed to the modern Christian version. His silence is deafening and a clear indicator that he has no prophecies or promises to present from his Bible. He continues:

That would be a nice quote if by Law what was being discussed was merely moral commands…I feel like I am repeating myself…

The “Law” are “moral commands from God”, unless what he meant by Law, was not the word Law. Since that is the case, he needs to choose his words better. If the word “law” does not mean “law”, then the onus is on your Mr. Edwards to explicitly use the words you wish to convey your message accurately. What does the “law” mean Mr. Edwards, if not “moral commands from God”? He continues:

The rest of this is unworthy of my time, I am quite busy and reading his post induces headaches.

Apparently my posts are now “unworthy of his time”, although by him posting two articles about my arguments he’s stating the opposite! While I am sure my posts give him headaches and while that does please me, I really do wish for him to be guided. He continues:

But, if he is taking ilm from the Jews now, I hope he accepts their reasons for rejecting Muhammad, then again maybe he is now rejecting Jesus or is an Atheist..a Jew..if its expedient will he next be a liberal post modernist? ..who knows.

Fallacy of hasty generalization and a poor ad hominem as well. I’m a Muslim, I follow Qur’an and Sunnah, I’ve never identified myself otherwise. Looking forward to giving Chessie L. Edwards more headaches though.

wa Allaahu Alam.
[and God knows best].

Refutation: How Muslims bloggers wrongly divide the Word of God. PT 1

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ,

After a seemingly long absence from the apologetics realm, Chessie L. Edwards has once again returned, with a brand new article. You can read my previous responses to all of his articles here. I am pleased to see that not much has changed, he was attempting to respond to this post of mine.  Specifically trying to respond to Argument #1.

His Introduction:

Christ being “sinless”is beyond mere moral conduct it has to do with nature. Christ was not born of a male, he was supernaturally conceived without sperm to the virgin Mary. What this all means is that he was not under the curse of Adam, he did not have the fallen wretched sinful natural that afflicts all other men.

According to Chessie, Christ was not sinless due to moral conduct, but due to being born that way, as he puts it, this was “Christ’s nature”. I couldn’t agree more, it’s finally good to see him accepting the Islamic position of all children being born upon the “fitrah” or “pure nature”. We as Muslims also agree with the notion that Christ was not born of a male, however we would like to ask him what curse of Adam he is referring to? That is because, while I am sure he meant the “original sin”, this belief has no Biblical basis. In fact, the only curse of Adam would be that of Genesis 3:14-15, which does not mention any man having been cursed by God to be born with sin.

What is meant by ‘Christ fulfilled the Law’:

When it is said Christ fulfilled the Law and Old Testament, what is being spoken of is again beyond human moral-ism. All the promises, types and shadows in the old Testament pointed to the Messiah. No mere prophet was going to fulfill the words of Isaiah when he said….

According to Chessie, following the law, does not mean following the law, as he comprehends it to mean being above “human morality”. So by that logic, if we “follow” the law “perfectly”, i.e. we fulfil it, does that mean we in ourselves are above “human morality”?

In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah; his wife Elizabeth was also a descendant of Aaron. Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord’s commands and decrees blamelessly. – Bible, Luke 1:5-6.

Clearly he needs to sit down and study his own Bible, after all these two verses which demonstrate that humans can practise all of the law blamelessly, is in the first chapter of the Gospel according to “Luke”. One of the problems we see with Christians is their poor study of the Old Testament. Rabbi Michael Skobac discusses the irrational belief of the Christians and their prophecies of their concept of a Messiah:

While as Muslims we do accept Jesus as the Messiah, we do not agree, along with the Jews that the Messiah is to be a God, a sacrificial son, a Trinitarian, etc. In the above video, the Rabbi examines the claims of “prophetic-God Messiah-ship”, it’s well worth the time to watch it. Chessie then tries to claim that Isaiah 9:6 is a prophecy about Christ being foretold as the Son of God, something which I answered here.

He then proceeded to quote a variety of verses that reference Paul’s and Christ’s attitude pertaining to the law, something which I have already discussed in detail in this article of mines. I won’t bother to answer those claims in this response as the articles I’ve previously written and subsequently linked to (see above) more than aptly go into heavily detailed study and research into these rather simple topics.

Conclusion:

I am left questioning myself as to how Chessie considered this a “refutation”, as opposed to more of an erratic tirade for the purpose of insulting me:

It is no surprise the a unregenerate natural minded man such as our Muslim blogger would be blinded to the Spiritual truths contain in scripture, the Word of God tells us

At this point, I suppose he gave up on trying to respond to my argument and proceeded to just write a post to give the illusion his blog is still active, other than that I can’t fathom a reason he’d write something so silly. My arguments therefore stand and I do look forward to seeing someone else eventually try to respond to them.

wa Allaahu Alam.
[and God knows best.]

Refutation: Proving Original Sin from the Quran

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ,

The pseudo ex-Muslim and Islamophobe, Chessie Williams has authored a piece, portraying his absolute ignorance of both Islamic and Christian theologies. I personally apologize on his behalf for the time anyone has wasted on reading his article. With that in mind, let’s begin to analyse what he’s said and what reality would prefer to have us believe:

“..Adam forgot and his offspring forgot, Adam made a mistake and his offspring made mistakes”. Hadeeth in  At-Tirmidhi also in Tafsir Ibn Kathir

This is what he begins with, and I’m very sure that what he’s attempting to portray cannot be made extant from this quotation. All this hadith is saying, is that Adam {as} made mistakes and his offspring (mankind) also made mistakes, this is part of the human nature which Allaah further explains through His Prophet {saw}:

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “I swear by Him in whose hand is my soul, if you were a people who did not commit sin, Allah would take you away and replace you with a people who would sin and then seek Allah’s forgiveness so He could forgive them.” [Sahīh Muslim (2687)]

Therefore it is in this regard, that Adam’s {as} sinning and his offspring’s sinning, is allowed (these acts against God’s commands) because it has a purpose and that purpose is for Allaah to forgive them of their sins. This then puts Chessie’s quote into context, the hadith does not mean because Adam {as} sinned, that we would all sin, but that Adam’s {as} sinning is part of why God created us, and that sinning is what God expects of us humans, so that we may seek forgiveness from Him. Therefore Adam’s {as} sinning is not permanent upon him, as that would mean forgiveness was never an option, yet we can logically derive the view that sinning presupposes forgiveness through the Hadith in Sahih al Muslim. He then goes on to make a series of incoherent and unintelligible statements:

Islam claims that Allah forgave Adam of the sin of eating from the tree(in the middle of the Garden), there is no original Sin, everyone is born sinless on the natural inclination of Islam, and Sin is purely individualist(No concept of Adam being mankind’s Federal head). Allah doesn’t allow anyone to carry the burden of another persons Sin(certainly not Adams).

Perhaps it would be rash of me to point this out, but I am perturbed by the ignorance that Chessie Williams is spewing. To begin with, indeed God is just, He does not place a burden upon a person where it is not due, He is Ar Rahman, Ar Rahim, (Most Loving, Most Caring) and it is in this light that Islamic theology accepts that each human enters this world sinless, they have not yet had the chance to sin before birth and by entering the world, they now have a medium to exercise their freewill, wherein that can choose to obey or disobey. It is absolutely unjust and irrational to think that God would cast a being with sin before they’ve yet had the chance to do so. Perhaps this is the unjust God which Chessie believes in, but this is not the nature of the God which Islam allows us to have faith in.

Secondly it is absurd to think that because Adam {as} sinned that we all have inherited his sin, if that is the case, should we also not inherit his good? Where is the original good deed in Christianity? Rather, it is a faith which looks to devalue the human ability, whereas we as Muslims accept the reality that we are adults, we do live and function in this world and therefore we accept the responsibility for the consequences of our actions. Perhaps it is ideal for Chessie and his zealot Christian brethren to have a fanciful belief that they are not responsible for their actions, but this is petulant and inane. Adam {as} sinning does not negate him from being the first man or the first human on the earth as Chessie would have us believe. In fact the Bible agrees with Islam in that no one person bears the sin of another:

The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. – Ezekiel 18:20

as well as…

Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin. – Deuteronomy 24:16

Therefore we ask that Chessie takes responsibility for his actions and comes to his own, that he is indeed an adult. Even if you assume it’s a nonsensical Islamic belief, he cannot and should not ignore the commands of His Lord from within the Bible. If that is the case, then indeed his faith is as fraudulent as they come. Chessie then provides a short chronological list of the events that led to Adam {as} being removed from Jannah. He ends this list with a presupposed contradiction:

But what happens after that is the source of contradiction.
5 Allah orders Adam to get down from Jannah to earth, and from then on the following consequences take place:
A. He is enemies with Iblis.
B. Suffers death, sickness, and disease
C His children in turn suffer death, sickness, and disease
D. Man is subject to continual sinning, when before Adams Sin there was no Sin in man
E. Man is subject to being led astray from their pure fitrah and now risks going to hell
F. The world it seas, land and inhabitants have to now suffer because of Adams Sin.
“Corruption has appeared in the land and the sea on account of what the hands of men have wrought, that He may make them taste a part of that which they have done, so that they may return.[30.42] Ar-rum .

Forgive his appalling grammar, it took me a while to fully comprehend what his point was, I do understand that he’s under a lot of stress after being unable to defend himself from his own misgivings, but that does not excuse him from taking sometime to be considerate and accept that people would actually read what he writes.

The Qur’an answers all of his claims in one ayah, before Adam {as} sinned, God said in the Qur’an why He was creating Adam {as} and that He knew what Adam {as} would do on the earth:

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَ‌بُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْ‌ضِ خَلِيفَةً ۖ قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَنْ يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ
Remember, when your Lord said to the angels: “I have to place a trustee on the earth,” they said: “Will You place one there who would create disorder and shed blood, while we intone Your litanies and sanctify Your name?” And God said: “I know what you do not know.” – Qur’an : Suratul Baqarah (2) : 30.

Therefore, Adam {as} was created to be placed on earth and God knew Adam {as} would sin. The sinning of mankind isn’t due to Adam {as} sinning, but the nature of mankind, according to the ayah, is that mankind’s feeble nature would allow them to sin as it is allowed by God. Also, Adam {as} being sent to the earth was the purpose of his creation as we read from the Ayah above. In this regard, the Qur’an clearly refutes Chessie, Adam {as} was created to live on the earth, this was part of God’s plan (Qadr) as we read from the Ayah and that God created Adam {as} knowing that Adam {as} and his progeny would do evil on the earth, as God granted them the freewill to do so.

Whereas in Islam, Adam {as} being sent to the earth and God allowing him and his progeny to live here was God’s plan, in Christianity it was a mistake, and therefore this is why Christians have to create excuses for mankind being sent to earth and doing evil:

The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. – Genesis 6:6

Recall, above we read that Chessie’s concept of God is one who creates man with sin, so God from the on start has condemned men, then God places men on earth due to a mistake which He did not foresee and therefore God regretted that He placed mankind on earth because this was not what God intended. This therefore brings us to two conclusions:

(1) Islam holds the belief that Adam {as} had freewill and was created with it, God created Adam {as} and his progeny to live on earth, knowing they would sin. This was all His plan.

(2) Christianity holds the belief that Adam’s {as} progeny are born with sin, God was not all knowing and did not foresee the evil His creation would do and therefore God made a mistake (He regretted) sending men to live on earth, it was not His plan.

Chessie then proceeds to demolish his own arguments further by making the following statement:

If Adam was truly forgiven then his state should have reverted back to what it was prior to his Sin, but instead as demonstrated(from the Quran) everything changed including the very nature of Mankind, and how he related to His creator.

Chessie, I advise you to actually read the Qur’an, let us recall once more why Adam {as} was created:

وَإِذْ قَالَ رَ‌بُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي جَاعِلٌ فِي الْأَرْ‌ضِ خَلِيفَةً ۖ قَالُوا أَتَجْعَلُ فِيهَا مَنْ يُفْسِدُ فِيهَا وَيَسْفِكُ الدِّمَاءَ وَنَحْنُ نُسَبِّحُ بِحَمْدِكَ وَنُقَدِّسُ لَكَ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي أَعْلَمُ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ
Remember, when your Lord said to the angels: “I have to place a trustee on the earth,” they said: “Will You place one there who would create disorder and shed blood, while we intone Your litanies and sanctify Your name?” And God said: “I know what you do not know.” – Qur’an : Suratul Baqarah (2) : 30.

Adam {as} was created to be sent to have his abode be earth (temporarily), until Yawmul Qiyamah (the Day of Judgement). This was God’s plan, because God is All Knowing and He Himself has said, “I know what you do not know”. Indeed, Chessie has not read the Qur’an therefore he could not have come to this understanding. Ignorance is bliss for Chessie as it allows him to pervert his understanding of Islam, one would think that a self claimant to being highly educated in Islam would know what the 30th verse of the second chapter says, but alas, we find fools everywhere, Chessie is by no means any exception. As the famous Latin saying goes….”damnant quod non intelligunt“, they condemn what they do not understand.

He then tries to portray Adam {as} as being devoid of God’s mercy, that Adam {as} is incapable of having a good relationship with His Lord:

We know from narrations that Sin cause’s one to be banned from having direct relational communion with God…

Yet, the ayat he references deals with the Day of Judgement:

“Nay! Surely, they (evil doers) will be veiled from seeing their Lord that Day” al-Mutafiffoon 83:15

Yet, God in the Qur’an refutes Chessie’s claim again, God praises Adam {as} and lauds him as one who has received God’s grace and mercy:

Thereafter Adam received certain words from his Lord, and He turned towards him; truly He turns, and is All-compassionate.- Qur’an 2:37.

To summarize, Adam {as} being sent to the earth was one of his purposes for being created and his allowance of freewill to do good or cause evil was determined by Allaah, it was not an unexpected surprise which caused God to have a panic attack and have subsequent regret and grievances as Genesis 6:6 would lead us to believe. God willing, Chessie  Williams does read this and in doing so, does learn to read the first 30 verses of the second chapter of the Qur’an.

wa Allaahu Alam.
[and God knows best.]

 

Refutation: God’s Grace or Self Righteous Suicide ?

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ,

It is beyond fanciful and absurd, self delusional rhetoric to assume that the fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity, is sin. Rather there are many facets of theological disagreement, beyond law, but dealing with the very nature of God. Therefore when Chessie L. Edwards makes a statement like this:

The difference between Christianity and Islam boils down to the issue of Sin

It only leaves much to be desired. Either Chessie Edwards has to overly simplify and generalize our faiths differences to negotiate his ignorance on these matters or he simply was being lazy. He then proceeds to summarize what he assumes Islam teaches about getting into paradise:

Islam says if you strive hard, be really religious and become a Muhsin(A good doer) upon Ihsan(The highest level of Islamic spirituality) you can purify your own heart and earn yourself a place in this Garden.

The premise of freewill which God has created us with, allows us humans to choose whether to do good or to commit sin. If it is, that God did not want us to have this choice, then we would either only sin or only do good, then we would not have been created with the ability of freewill. What Chessie is trying to imply is that we cannot by ourselves do good, or that we will never be able to do enough good to gain heaven on our own merit. To an extent this is true, we cannot rely on our own acts to get us into heaven because as humans we often err without reason. However that does not indicate that God did not give us a solution.

One of God’s attributes is to be Ar Rahman (The Most Merciful), with that in mind His mercy is as such that He is oft forgiving and most forgiving. One way we can seek to gain paradise is through God’s mercy and that relates to our sincerity in our repentance for our sins. We read this in both the Bible and the Qur’an:

Qur’aan 25:71
And whosoever repents and does righteous good deeds, then verily, he repents towards Allâh with true repentance.

Qur’aan 28:67
But any that (in this life) had repented, believed, and worked righteousness, will have hopes to be among those who achieve salvation.

Qur’aan 3:89
Except for those that repent (even) after that and make amends: for verily Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Qur’aan 7:153
But those who do wrong but repent thereafter and (truly) believe― verily Thy Lord is thereafter Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Qur’aan 20:82
Surely I am the Most-Forgiving for him who repents and believes and acts righteously, then follows the right path.

2 Chronicles 32:26
Then Hezekiah repented of the pride of his heart, as did the people of Jerusalem; therefore the LORD’s wrath did not come on them during the days of Hezekiah.

Job 34:33
Should God then reward you on your terms, when you refuse to repent? You must decide, not I; so tell me what you know.

Job 36:10
He makes them listen to correction and commands them to repent of their evil.

Isaiah 30:15
This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.

Matthew 3:8
Produce fruit in keeping with repentance.

Matthew 4:17
From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

Mark 6:12
They went out and preached that people should repent.

Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Luke 15:10
In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

and both the Bible and the Qur’aan have many more of these quotes. There is a common theme that we can derive from the above quotations. Believe (have faith), do good works and repent for whatever sins you have. Therefore, it is in this regard, that we can accept that Islam and Christianity agree on a plan for salvation. The problem however, has come with those people who have deviated from the true religion of the Christ. Instead of obeying his words of belief in God, doing good works and repenting, they rather believe in him as a God, and seek repentance through his alleged death, both things he himself never mentions in the New Testament.

What is most ironic however, is the hypocritical view of Chessie, this is what he has to say if someone rejects Islam:

As for the vast majority of everyone else they will have to take God’s wrath upon themselves by being burned in hell until they atone for their Sins. How long a person stays in the fire and how much wrath they take is all up to the will of God..it could be 50 years or it could be 50,000 years.

Yet, this is also true for Christianity. A person who rejects the Christ as a God is deemed a sinner and therefore will suffer eternal perdition( torture/ punishment in hell):

2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

After having said this, is Chessie denying that God will punish disbelievers and therefore that’s why he mentions the punishment as endorsed by Islam, or is he trying to paint Islam as being barbaric because disbelievers are punished? I am asking because as displayed above, even his own faith endorses the position of eternal punishment for disbelievers. Even the acts of believers are rejected according to the Bible:

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Whereas the Qur’aan says:

Surah 99:1-8
When the earth with be trembled with its quake, and the earth will bring forth its burdens, And man will say, “What has happened to it?” That day it will describe all its happenings, Because its Lord will have so commanded it. That day the people will come back (from the place of reckoning) in different groups, so that they may be shown (the fruits of) their deeds. So, whoever does any good act (even) to the weight of a particle will see it. And whoever does evil (even) to the weight of a particle will see it.

Whether it be a smile or a thought, essentially, in Islam, any moment not spent in sin, is a moment earned in good acts/ deeds. This is the mercy and glory of God’s love for mankind:

Narrated Anas (may God be pleased with him): The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “My Lord says, ‘If My slave comes nearer to me for a span, I go nearer to him for a cubit; and if he comes nearer to Me for a cubit, I go nearer to him for the span of outstretched arms; and if he comes to Me walking, I go to him running.’ “Sahih al Bukari : Book 93 : Hadith 627.

On the other hand however, as Chessie, has correctly stated, the standard that God holds man to is very low. While Islam acknowledges that mankind are sinners, it also accepts that mankind also does good, however, let’s see what Christianity says about mankind according to Chessie:

Christianity on the other hand says man is totally depraved and a natural born habitual Sinner. God’s standard’s of obedience is that you never disobey Him not even once.. which mankind no matter how hard it tries can ever accomplish.

Christianity according to Chessie Edwards, is a faith that holds men to be incapable bumbling idiots, that couldn’t do good if they wanted to, as in his terms, he’s said, “totally depraved”, i.e. completely morally corrupt and perverted. This is a contradiction however, if mankind was completely morally corrupt, then that would mean that we had no freewill. Following my aforementioned assertion on freewill, we can gather that Chessie believes we don’t necessarily have freewill because we can only sin and err, i.e. do evil. With that in mind, then he must accept that God created us without freewill, otherwise, he has to retract his absurd statement and accept that we do have a choice and that we are capable of doing good. Hence it is why we see God forgiving men in the Bible and accepting their repentance:

Isaiah 30:15
This is what the Sovereign LORD, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it.

It isn’t unusual to find Mr. Edwards contradicting his own scripture, but the lengths he goes, in consort with his frequency is quite alarming to say the least. I also must ask of him to prove his second statement, that the Bible commands that you not disobey God once, or else you earn eternal damnation. He continues to disparage his being, by insulting his very position as human:

Every human being know matter how religious or spiritual they are will always fall and Sin sooner or later. Sinners rightfully deserve God’s wrath because God has decreed so, but again weak imperfect humans could never stand under His wrath, Hell is not temporarily it’s eternal you never get out.

I agree that we will all sin sooner or later, whether out of mistake or vice, disobedience is inevitable. However Chessie acts as if God is devoid of mercy and as if God’s only attribute is that of wrath and vengeance.  This is not the case, for when God revealed the Tawrah to the Children of Israel, not only did He reveal guidelines, He also revealed punishments and along those punishments, further means of expiation for those sins. Fasting, sacrifice, all means of removing sin. Therefore the very premise that Chessie is asserting, that God will take wrath upon a person for his very being, or because he has committed one sin, is contradicted by the teachings of the scripture. He then goes on to demonstrate what I will call stark ignorance:

As hopeless as that sounds and man’s ability to save himself is hopeless.. out of God’s Love and  Mercy He provided a substitute so that anyone who’s has complete Faith in it can be saved. God provided the promised Messiah; God the only perfect one come to the world to live the life of a perfect Muhsin that you are too weak to accomplish and to take the wrath you are to frail to stand under.

He instead preaches that God places His wrath only on one person and we should accept that God’s mercy was to place our sins and the consequential wrath, upon another person. Yet, this contradicts the understanding of God’s mercy. Why would God, who judges each person individually, punish someone else for our inequities. This is neither fair nor just. Quite unlike God’s justice.  What is further more alarming, is the belief that Chessie still has to repent according to the Bible for his sins.

My question is this, if belief that Jesus died for your sins, earns you salvation (i.e. freedom from sin and the punishment of sin), then which Christian can claim to be sinless and which Christian can claim that he needs not repent? Can Chessie Edwards measure up to those claims?

Definitely no, as he said himself, man is totally depraved, therefore his concept of “salvation” is merely a fanciful though, an appeal to wishful thinking, fallacious and non-sensical. May God guide those who believe in such fairy tales.

 وَلَا تَهِنُوا وَلَا تَحْزَنُوا وَأَنتُمُ الْأَعْلَوْنَ إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ
So do not lose heart or be grieved, for you will surely prevail if you are believers. – Qur’aan : Al i Imran (3) : 139.

wa Allaah Alam.
[and God knows best.]

Refutation: The Quran’s inaccurate description of the Trinity

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ,

Chessie Edwards love appealing to Sam Shamoun, he doesn’t have room to think for himself, his entire website is literally a text form for the long winded and ignorant speeches that Sam gives on ABN Sat. Almost every other argument he presents is verbatim from the mouth of Sam with the addition of, “I’m an Ex-Muslim”, as if that phrase adds any additional validity to his inane claims. Neither Sam nor Chessie are well educated in Christian theological history, at best they are internet scholars, if Google or Wikipedia ever goes offline we won’t be able to hear a single new argument. To be quite honest, none of Sam’s arguments are new either, just read a few of William Muir’s books or Abraham Geiger’s works or some of Raymond Lull’s writings against Islam and you’ve pretty much heard all the missionary rants. Most missionaries enjoy stating that the Qur’aan got the trinity wrong. Let’s refute this claim and in doing so, refute Sam as well.

The Qur’aan says:

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, “O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, ‘Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?'” He will say, “Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

Christians assert that they don’t take Mary as a God, therefore the Qur’aans claim is wrong. However a simple but substantial and formidable refutation to this is to prove one of two cases:

(1) To show atleast one Christian aligned sect which engaged in Mary worship or took Mary as a God.
(2) To show where a majority of Christian sects worship Mary or took Mary as a God.

The premise the Qur’aan operates under, or the modus operandi, the operational term, deities, i.e. Gods [إِلَـٰهَيْنِ]. In Islamic theology, to take something or someone as a God, beside Allaah is termed Shirk. There are many ways to commit Shirk, it can be through worship, through seeking intercession, by praying to someone beside God, or even attributing God’s attributes to anything other than God. For example if God is All Knowing, but I say that Mary is all knowing, then in this case I would have committed shirk. With this in mind, can I demonstrate anywhere in Christian theology where Shirk [associating God’s attributes to Mary] occurs?

Proving: (1) To show atleast one Christian aligned sect which engaged in Mary worship or took Mary as a God.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states, “The existence of the obscure sect of the Collyridians, whom St. Epiphanius (d. 403) denounces for their sacrificial offering of cakes to Mary, may fairly be held to prove that even before the Council of Ephesus there was a popular veneration for the Virgin Mother which threatened to run extravagant lengths.” This by itself proves my first premise, that there was a group of Christians, the Collyridians of whom engaged in rampant worship of Mary. As famous Catholic speaker Patrick Madrid as defined them:

The heresy of the Collyridians was very simple: They worshiped Mary.

Whether or not Sam Shamoun or Chessie Edwards considers the Collyridians as Christian does not matter. They are seen as a heretical Christian sect and as such, their worship of Mary complies with the Qur’aanic claim.

Proving: (2) To show where a majority of Christian sects worship Mary or took Mary as a God.

What’s unknown to most missionary zealots is the clear cut Mary worship involved in today’s prominent Christian sects, i.e. Catholicism and Protestantism. It might seem odd, or unclear to most Christians, but the focal point of Christendom revolves around sin. In this light, we have to recall the Immaculate Conception, this refers to the conception of Mary. For Jesus to have been born sinless, he had to be rid of the original sin and to be born free of the original sin, you cannot be born through the womb of a woman. However this problem is solved in Christian theology by God granting Mary a special mercy or blessing, where she is pure and sinless and thus does not carry on the original sin to her child, Jesus.

However, the early Christian church in inventing the idea of the Immaculate Conception, attributed God like features to Mary:

The salutation of the angel Gabriel — chaire kecharitomene, Hail, full of grace (Luke 1:28) indicates a unique abundance of grace, a supernatural, godlike state of soul, which finds its explanation only in the Immaculate Conception of Mary. But the term kecharitomene (full of grace) serves only as an illustration, not as a proof of the dogma.

Her state is unique, supernatural and godlike. This, coming from the Catholic Encyclopedia, as evidence from the Bible of Mary’s Immaculate Conception. Yet, from the Bible, they are implying her soul is like the “soul of God”, they are in essence comparing her to God or attributing to her, God like features. This constitutes Shirk, thus proving point (2). Yet it does not end there, the polytheistic quotes continue:

she was created in a condition more sublime and glorious than all other natures. – Theodorus of Jerusalem in Mansi, XII, 1140.

To St. Ephraem she was as innocent as Eve before her fall, a virgin most estranged from every stain of sin, more holy than the Seraphim, the sealed fountain of the Holy Ghost, the pure seed of God, ever in body and in mind intact and immaculate. – Carmina Nisibena.

Conclusion:

Seeing as both points are proven above, then the claim that the Qur’aan asserts, that of Mary being taken as a God in Christendom has been proven valid and to be truthful. Sam’s biggest claim to refute the Qur’aanic statement was that Mary had been attributed to the Trinity, yet this was not the Qur’aanic assertion, the Qur’aanic statement had to do with Mary being taken as a God. Since the claim has been proven true, it rests upon Sam Shamoun to either publicly correct himself for his doctrinal error or as I expect, for him to deny the evidences and ignore this refutation.

wa Allaahu Alam.
[and God knows best.]

Chessie L. Edwards: Runs from Muslim Challenge

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ,

In an embarrassing turn of events for  Mr. Edwards, after this posting, I seemed to have gotten the better of him. Unfortunately his frustration has gained new grounds and he has sought to disregard debating with me, take a look at this photo:

Now let’s look at the screen shot today, several hours after the “debate” occurred:

At first glimpse, I was a bit confused, I could have sworn that the debate was there last night, yet this morning it’s absent? A seemingly strange occurrence with a funny outcome. It seems as if I pushed enough buttons to send Mr. Edwards up and over the edge. As it turns out, he blocked me on Facebook:

To ensure I wasn’t imagining this, I checked my inbox to see if I could message and ask if he had removed his posts, but upon checking, I was told I could no longer message him. As you can see the last message in my inbox was almost one month ago, to God knows what kind of video he was sending me. Just for further evidence of him blocking me after that horrendous debate:

With that ends a chapter of Mr. Edwards sending rather inappropriate messages to me for sometime, awkward debates where he embarrassed himself and well, Facebook screenshots of this guy really fumbling around. I’ll miss his comments, as they did provide a good laugh, but alas he knows he can’t resist replying to me, eventually he’ll respond whether on the website, via my email or I hope not, my cell.

wa Allaahu Alam.
[and God knows best.]

CL Edwards Tries to Debate Me, Runs Away After One Question

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ,

I knew he couldn’t resist me, CL. Edwards tried to engage me in a debate, a little discussion on Jesus, unfortunately for him, he made a claim, I questioned that claim and he ended up running away. What I did was simple, I questioned his statement, he tried to manouver out of answering the question, but I remained intent on having him show everyone that he did not know what he was speaking about. I laid a premise, he took the bait and when he realised he could no longer answer the statement he so proudly made, he imitated the disciples and fled when the truth (according to the Bible) got to real for him:

Then everyone deserted him and fled. – Bible : Mark (14) : 50.

If you want to view his apparent obsession with me and his creepy inbox messages, you can check out this post here. What you’ll discover as odd and rightly so, is his sick comment about masturbation and myself:

…….you may mentally masturbate with someone with more free time….

Creepy messages, posts focused on me, mental masturbation with me, I’m not sure what his angle is here, but I do not feel comfortable with the level of attention this adult is giving myself, a teenager over the internet. Foregoing the weird comments and inbox messages, I suggest you all read the little discussion/ debate I had with him below:

This is a lesson he should learn, don’t make claims that you cannot prove or defend. I’m still confused as to why he thinks I could not question his statement, in a discussion you question your opponents statements, if I didn’t then he’d either accuse me of ignoring his statements and questions (which he did above) or he would justify it by saying I’m incapable of responding to him. Listen Mr. Edwards, if you’re uncomfortable with people questioning your logic, questioning your statements, then I suggest you quit this arena of theological discourse, you’re clearly not cut out for this job. Leave it to the adults like myself.

wa Allaahu Alam.
[and God knows best.]

Refutation: Islamic Spain was not Utopia for everyone

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ,

After some serious academic insight brought about by a 3 minute youtube video, self appointed Christian Scholar and “Biblist” Chessie Edwards has decided to launch an attack on common sense and basic history. This time he focuses his ignorance towards Islamic Spain. So what exactly does he state?

It is said the victors get to write history, well boy who ever said that never lied!

His argument here is that most of the history of Islamic Spain (Al Andalus) comes from Muslims, therefore it is innately biased towards Islam. What he seems to not know, is that the blood thirsty, genocidal barbarian Christian soldiers who invaded Al Andalus destroyed almost all Islamic written literature:

In 1490 a number of Hebrew Bibles and other Jewish books were burned at the behest of the Spanish Inquisition. In 1499 about 5000 Arabic manuscripts were consumed by flames in the public square at Granada on the orders of Ximénez de Cisneros, Archbishop of Toledo.(The Spanish Inquisition, Henry Kelsea, London, White Lion, 1965, p.98) and (Eastern Wisdome and Learninge. The Study of Arabic in Seventeenth-Century England, G. J. Toomer, Oxford, 1996, p.17)

Which by all means was sanctioned by the Bible:

When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor.  Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed what they had done.  A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas. Bible : Acts (19) : 17 – 19.

Mr. Edwards goes on to state:

From the “Dawah” camp unsuspecting non-Muslims are bombarded with the wonders of Islamic Spain, and how Islam produced this tolerant advanced super Middle ages Atlantis. This is some how suppose to convince the public that Shariah improves societies it enters(instead of dragging them down to 3rd worldliness), and Islam is the true religion for mankind…see look at its track record. Yea…lets do that let’s look at the track record and see if Islam produced the Utopia the Dawahist claim.

This entire post thus far, has not used a single Islamic source! I’ve used the Bible and a few European authors, yet Mr. Edwards insists that it’s Muslims who wrote the history of Islamic Spain, whereas we can see that after his own brothers in Christian bred intolerance burned Islamic and Jewish books, they themselves recorded the great history of Islamic Spain. So what do Jews say about Christian Spain?

Under Recared.

The position of the Jews became even less favorable when King Recared (586-589), for political reasons, abjured the Arian faith before the third Council of Toledo and entered the Catholic Church. In order to confirm the converted Arians in the Catholic faith and to win the clergy over to his side, he endeavored to prevent the Christians from associating with the Jews, who, as the allies of those opposed to his conversion, might have proved dangerous opponents of his religious plans. At the Council of Toledo in 589 he issued an order to the effect that Jews might not acquire or own Christian slaves, nor fill public offices, nor have intercourse with Christian women; the circumcision of a slave or of a Christian was punished with confiscation of property. Recared did not, however, succeed in enforcing his laws. The Arians, recently converted to the Catholic faith, were true allies of the Jews, who were oppressed like themselves; and the Jews were therefore protected by the Arian bishops and by the independent Visigothic nobility. The successors of Recared were, as a rule, better disposed toward the Jews, King Sisebut being the first who endeavored to enforce fully the laws enacted by Recared. He ordered that the Jews, on pain of the loss of their property, should release all their Christian slaves within a short time, and that in the future they might not hold any slaves.

Under the Visigoths.

Sisebut decreed the first persecution of the Jews in Spain. Whether he was influenced by Emperor Heraclius, or whether the clergy brought it about, is unknown, but he ordered that within a year all Jews should either submit to baptism or leave the Visigothic kingdom forever. Many Jews fled; but the greater number, more than 90,000, saved their property and their homes by embracing Christianity, though at heart they remained Jews. On account of this forcible conversion the king was severely criticized by Isidor of Seville, the most learned Spaniard of the time. During the reign of Suintala the fugitives returned to their country and the baptized Jews openly professed Judaism again. Forced to abdicate his throne, Suintala was succeeded by Sisenand. The latter was the tool of the clergy, and at the fourth Toledan Council (633) he ordered that the children of baptized Jews should be taken from their parents and given to Christians or to the cloisters for education. He ordered also that all Jews who had been forcibly baptized and who practised Jewish ceremonies should be given away as slaves.

The council called at Toledo by Chintila not only confirmed all the previously enacted anti-Jewish laws, but it ordained that no Jew might remain in the country, and that in the future every king at his accession should promise on oath to proceed with the greatest severity against all relapsing baptized Jews. The pseudo-Christians presented to the king a written statement declaring that they would live as good Catholics; but under Chindaswind they openly returned to the fold of Judaism. King Receswind was more severe than any of his predecessors. He ordered that Jews who practised the rites of their faith should be beheaded, burned, or stoned to death. The Jews of Toledo promised (653) to observe the Church regulations, including that ordering them not to abstain from eating pork. Nevertheless, they continued to observe the Jewish festivals and to ignore the Christian, so that the clergy at length insisted upon their celebrating the Christian holy days under the supervision of the Church authorities.

The severe measures taken by the Visigothic civil officers as well as by the councils were mainly directed against the secret Jews, whom the clergy considered more dangerous than the unbaptized ones; the latter were, therefore, left in peace. Erwig, however, attempted to force these to accept baptism, threatening them with the confiscation of their property or with expulsion if they refused; he pronounced the severest punishments for the reading of anti-Christian writings and for practising the rite of circumcision. All the anti-Jewish laws proposed by this king were accepted by the twelfth Toledan Council, presided over by Archbishop Julian of Toledo, who had published several writings against the Jews, although he was himself of Jewish origin and kept a Jewish servant.

Egica, the son-in-law and successor of Erwig, in the beginning of his reign showed himself mild toward the Jews. When, however, they allied themselves with the Arabs, who threatened the kingdom (which already was suffering from internal disturbances), the king confiscated all their property, and, in order to render them harmless for all time, declared all Jews, baptized or not, to be slaves and distibuted them as gifts among Christians. Jewish children over seven years of age were taken from their parents and similarly dealt with (end of 694).

The Arrival of the Moors.

Witiza, the son of Egica, is described sometimes as a paragon of virtue and sometimes as a veritable fiend; the latter description of him is the one generally given by ecclesiastical writers. Lucas de Tuy, Archbishop Rodrigo, Ambrosio de Morales, Juan do Mariana, and other Spanish historians hold that this king, to further heretical ends, misused the previous decisions of the councils, that he recalled the exiled Jews, granted them privileges, and even entrusted them with public offices. Whether this be true, or whether, as is more probable, he oppressed them as his predecessors had done, it remains a fact that the Jews, either directly or through their coreligionists in Africa, encouraged the Mohammedans to conquer Spain and that they greeted them as their deliverers. After the battle of Jerez (711), in which African Jews fought bravely under Kaula al-Yahudi, and in which the last Gothic king, Rodrigo, and his nobles were slain, the conquerors Musa and Ṭariḳ were everywhere victorious. The conquered cities Cordova, Malaga, Granada, Seville, and Toledo were placed in charge of the Jewish inhabitants, who had been armed by the Arabs. The victors removed the disabilities which had oppressed the Jews so heavily, and granted them full religious liberty, requiring them to pay only the tribute of one golden dinar per capita (Adolf do Castro, “Historia de los Judios en España,” pp. 33 et seq.; Rios, “Hist.” i. 106 et seq.; G. van Vlooten, “Recherches sur la Domination Arabe,” Amsterdam, 1894).

Chilling isn’t it? The praise of the Muslims by the Jews, whereas the crimes of the Christians are recorded in Jewish history, not Islamic. What does Mr. Edwards have to say to this? We leave him in his ignorance, but we leave our readers, not with a 3 minute YouTube video, appealing to the fallacy of, “appeal to emotion”. We’re going to leave you with a full length documentary on Islamic Spain by actual academia:

It was not a Utopia for everyone, under Christian theocratic genocide.

wa Allaahu Alam.
[and God knows best.]

Refutation: The History of the Qur’an Super Post

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem
بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ ,

After becoming upset at our Bible post on Ezra and posting a tragedy of a response, Chessie Edwards decided to try to attack the Qur’aan, so here are the responses to his post:

Done by Professor Daniel Madigan:

Daniel Madigan S.J. is an Australian Jesuit priest who joined Georgetown’s Department of Theology in 2008, and where he is currently Director of Graduate Studies. He is also a Senior Fellow of The Al-Waleed Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding, and of the Woodstock Theological Center at Georgetown, where he is directing a project on Christian theologies that are responsive to Islam. Madigan is also Honorary Professorial Fellow of the Australian Catholic University’s Asia-Pacific Center for Interreligious Dialogue.

Before moving to Georgetown he taught in Rome (2000-7), where he was was the founder and director (2002-7) of the Institute for the Study of Religions and Cultures at the Pontifical Gregorian University. His main fields of teaching and research are Qur’anic Studies, Interreligious Dialogue and particularly Muslim-Christian relations. He has also taught as a visiting professor at Columbia University, Ankara University, Boston College and Central European University.

Mr. Edwards, also cheaply tries to use the “San’aa” manuscripts as problematic for the Qur’aan, see here what Dr. Gerd Puin has actually stated on that issue:

In 1972 a stock of old parchments manuscripts containing manuscripts of the Qur’an was discovered in the loft of the Great Mosque of San’a. in the early eighties the Yamani Antiquities Authority, particularly its President Qadi Isma’il al-Akwa’, ivited through the German Foreign Ministry two German experts, Dr. Gerd. R. Puin and H. C. Graf Von Bothmer, for the restoration and preservation of the manuscripts. They worked at San’a for some years in this project. It appears that besides being experts in restoration and preservation in manuscripts that had “orientalists” motives; for, it is reported that Bothmer make microfilm copies of some 35,000 sheets of the manuscripts and took them to Germany. In 1987 he wrote an article on these manuscripts mentioning, among other things, that one of them, no. 1033-32, could be assigned a date in the last quarter of the first hijri century.

More orientalist in nature was however the article which Puin wrote under title: “Observatons on Early Qur’an Manuscripts in San’a”. These writings attracted the attention of the orientalists to the San’a manuscripts and they held a seminar at Leiden in 1998 on “Qur’anic Studies” at which both Bothmer and Puin delivered lectures on the San’a manuscripts. It is not known what exactly they said there on the subject; but the above mentioned article of Puin clearly shows his intentions and conclusions on the subject. In the main he stresses three things in the article.

First, he refers to the attempts made previously by the orientalists like Jeffrey Arthur, Otto Pretzel, Anthony Spitaler and A. Fischer to collect the existing manuscripts of the Qur’an in order to prepare what they call a revised version by comparing any differences in them and regretfully mentions that the very large number of manuscripts collected for the purpose at the University of Munich, Germany, were destroyed by bombing during the Second World War.

He then expresses the hope that the San’a find offers an opportunity to resume that project of work.Second, he mentions what he has been able to note the “discrepancies” in the San’a manuscripts and says:

(a) In a number of manuscripts the letter alif (hamzah) is written in an incorrect way;
(b) there are some differences in the numbering of ‘ayahs in some surahs and
(c) in two or three sheets he has found surahs written not in the order as found in the Qur’an in circulation.

Third he recognises that these “discrepancies” are minor and they would not probably lead to any sudden and significant advance in the field of Qur’anic studies.

Nonetheless he asserts that the Qur’an, though it claims to be “clear” (mubin) is not so and that the existence of the above mentioned “discrepancies” show that the surahs of the Qur’an were not written down in their final form during the lifetime of the Prophet and that it is probable that a Qur’an with a different order of the surahs was in circulation for a long time.It must at once be pointed out that these statements and conclusions areclearly far-fetched and totally untenable. Before discussing this, however, it is necessary to point out that this writing of Puin (and also of Bothmer) gave rise to wide-spread and wild speculations in the orientalists circles if only because these fell on ready and willing ears. One of the orientalist writers, Toby Lester, held telephonic conversations with Puin on the subject and then put forth an article in the January 1999 issue of the Atlantic Monthly under caption: “What is the Qur’an?”.

The article is made up of three types of materials:

(a) information about the San’a find an the conclusions aid to have been arrived at by Puin and Bothmer;
(b) assumptions of the other orientalists like Wansborough, Cook , Crone, Nevo and J. A. Bellamy about the Qur’an and
(c) indications about what the orientalists are doing or propose to do in the field of Qur’anic studies.

As regards the San’a manuscripts Toby Lester inflates and reiterates the views of Puin and says that according to him the Qur’an came into being through a process of evolution over a long period; that it is not a book sent down from the heaven on the Prophet in the seventh Christian century; that it is not “clear” as it claims to be, every fifth of its ayahs being either unintelligible of inexplicable and that there are instances of palimpsests or overwriting of some words or expressions in some sheets of the manuscripts. Lester further alleges that the Yamani authorities are unwilling to allow detailed study of the manuscripts for fear of causing uneasiness in the Islamic world but, nonetheless, these manuscripts will help the orientalists in proving that the Qur’an has a “history” just as the Bible has a “history”.

As regards the assumptions of the other orientalists like Wansborough, Crone ad Cook, Lester sums up their view as already noted. Regarding the statements of J. A. Bellamy, we shall presently notice them.This article of Toby Lester, more than the articles of Puin and Bothmer, caused a wave of protests and anger against the Yamani authorities’ handling of the manuscripts, which in turn led to Puin and Bothmer to fear that their relationship with the latter would be adversely affected. Hence each of them hurried to write a letter to Qadi Isma’il al-Akwa to clarify their position. In his letter Puin defended himself as well as is colleague Bothmer and denied having said that there was among the manuscripts a different Qur’an than the one currently in circulation, that there was no basis of truth for what the American journal had alleged about their researches about the Qur’an and that the press campaign was intended to harm the academic relationship between he and the Yamani authorities.

This defence of Puin is in fact a mere twisting and turning of the words and it does not tally with what he actually says in his article. He says, as we have noticed, that the Qur’an, though it claims to be “clear” (mubin) is not so, that the alleged “discrepancies” show that the surahs of the Qur’an were not written down in their final form during the lifetime of the Prophet and that it is possible that a Qur’an with a different order of the surahs was in circulation for a long time. He also says that the San’a find offers an opportunity to the orientalists to resume the work of preparing a revised version of the Qur’an. It is therefore necessary to discuss briefly the discrepancies and inaccuracies in the statements of Puin himself.

First, in his reference to the collections of the Qur’anic manuscripts at the University of Munich and the efforts of the orientalists in that connection Puin omits to mention a very important fact. It is that, shortly before the outbreak of the Second World War the authorities in charge of those manuscripts had actually issued a statement on the basis of their study of them. That had said that a study and comparison of the manuscripts, though not complete, had not revealed any discrepancy and difference in the texts except minor spelling mistakes in some places which was natural and all of which did not, however, affect the correctness and integrity of the Qur’anic text as a whole. The “discrepancies” in the writing of ‘alif at some places to which Puin refers to belongs to this type of error or style in writing and they do not in any way affect the integrity and correctness of the text as a whole.

Second, slight difference in the numbering of ‘ayahs with regard to somesurahs which Puin notices with regard to a few surahs is quite natural. Such difference in the numbering of ‘ayahs is acknowledged even by some classical Muslim scholars and it does not affect the text at all. Even the well known orientalist Flugel’s numbering of the ‘ayahs of some surahs differs slightly from the standard numbering. Significantly enough, while speaking about the difference in numbering of ‘ayahs Puin does not at all indicate any difference in the text of the surahs.

Third, palimpsests or overwriting of words or expressions in a few places do not suggest anything more than correction of mistakes omitted in the writing of the words in the first instance. It cannot be a proof in support of the theory of revision of evolution of the text unless and earlier copy of the Qur’an containing different words and expressions in the same place is shown to exist. This has not been found in the San’a manuscripts nor shown by any other orientalist to have ever been existence.

Fourth, the conclusion that the surahs were not written down in their final form during the lifetime of the Prophet or that a Qur’an with a different ordering of the surahs was in circulation for a long time just because two or three sheets have been found where some surahs have been written in a different order, that is surahs from different places of the Qur’an in circulation have been put together, is hasty and untenable. It is important to note that is has been the habit of the Muslims since the very beginning to make collections of selected surahs in one compilation for purpose of study and memorisation, especially be students at madrasahs. And since mosques were invariably educational institutions, it is not at all strange that such collection of selected surahs should be found in a stock of Arabic manuscripts stored in a great mosque.

In any case, by the very admission of Puin, this is confined to two or three manuscript sheets only out of more than35,000 sheets. Before hazarding such a serious conclusion Puin and his sort should have got hold of copy of the Qur’an, or a considerable part of the existing Qur’an. Even the existence of a complete copy of the Qur’an with a different order of the surahs does not ipso facto prove that such a Qur’an prevailed among the Muslims unless it is proved that it was accepted and acted upon by them at ant given time; for it is well known that for academic and other purposes the Qur’an has been published from time to time with surahs arranged according to the order of their revelation.

Thus for instance, A. Rodwell published a English translation of the Qur’an in 1861 rearranging the surahs according to their order of publication under caption: The Coran : Translated from the Arabic, the surahs arranged in chronological order. And early in the twentieth century a Muslim of Bengal, Mirza Abul Fazl, issued a new translation arranging the surahs according to the order of their revelation. Similarly Richard Bell made another translation in the early thirties with what he called a “critical rearrangement of the surahs.” It has also been pointed out that the orientalists aim at preparing and publishing what they call a revised and corrected edition of the Qur’an. And of late, as Toby Lester has mentioned in his article, J. A. Bellamy has made this suggestion on the assumption that he has found a number of “mistakes” in the Qur’an.

The existence of a Qur’an with a different arrangement of the surahs or with what is called “corrections” and “revisions” cannot be cited as proof that such a Qur’an has ever been in use among the Muslims. – “The Qur’an & The Orientalists” by Mohar Ali

Here are further links on the Qur’aanic Manuscripts:

A Dissertation on the Preservation and Reliability of the Qur’aan by Brother Ibn Anwar.

An amazing collection of scholarly articles by numerous Islamic and Christian scholars on the preservation of the Qur’aan.

History of the Qur’aanic Text from Revelation to Compilation: Shaykh Mustafa Muhammad al Azami.

wa Allaahu Alam.
[and God knows best.]

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