• Hi Ijaz
    Where is God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit right now?

  • Defend, when you answer where Enoch and Elijah are, you may get your answer as to where Jesus may be right now. As for the “Holy Spirit,” since you believe “the advocate” spoken of by Jesus was the holy spirit, then yeah he,she,it, is somewhere on earth driving Christians into fits of epileptic hysteria so endearingly labeled as “speaking in tongues.” He,she,it, is incredibly busy ONLY inspiring Christians to comprehend the esoteric, supremely enigmatic,and manifestly fatuous nature of the trinity, yet leaving billions of others confused about it. However, we don’t believe in a quasi-god entity who manifested itself in the form of a dove–hell, could have been a pigeon, who knows–so, the biblical holy spirit is probably having a cup of tea with the Easter-bunny, or discussing politics with Santa Claus. Where is God? He is wherever it befits His Majesty.

  • Hey Adam

    Well the bible says about Enoch…and he was not: for God took him.

    The answer is in Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

    As for Elijah…
    2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven

    We Christians are always being accused about worshipping three gods but the bible does reveal three characters.

    How different characters does the bible reveal when Christians speak about God? It’s the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit we are not making this up.

    What about the resurrection? Who raised Jesus.

    Gal 1:1…The Father raised Jesus from the dead.

    John 2:18-19…Jesus said he would raise his body up.

    Rom 8:11…The Spirit raised up Jesus.

  • dc, can the father do everything on his own?

  • Defend, What exactly was the point of your original question? If your question tried to corner Ijaz to confess, that “Jesus, the holy spirit and God are all in heaven” that still is a monumentally aimless question. Just because they are currently all in heaven does not lead to the conclusion that they all must be God. Enoch and Elijah are also in heaven, they were taken alive and never tasted death. If I am correct about the point of you original question, that is, if being in heaven, or being taken alive to heaven renders a being–or beings–divine, then yes Enoch and Elijah must be divine. Heck, all the angels in heaven must share in God’s Divinity. If I have misunderstood your question–as you did not make it clear what the purpose of your question was–then you are free to elaborate and expound further. As for your references to those biblical verses, 1. What Paul said has no bearings on who Jesus was or what his mission was or what the nature of God is. Paul’s message was the antithesis to Jesus’ message. When Christians can understand Jesus’ message being “I have come not to abolish the law” and “So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven” and “If you want to enter life, keep the commandments,” Saul’s message being “Forget the law, God came down to earth, got hung on a cross, and through his blood will you be saved,” then they may make some theological headway and stop making intellectually bankrupt notions as the locus of their argumentation. 2.I as a Muslim do not believe in the resurrection of Jesus, in fact, most unbiased historians do not, but that is another matter. So who raised Jesus is a moot point, even if “John”–an unknown author who wrote decades after Jesus had left the scene–thinks he remembers Jesus’ words verbatim. 3. Even if “John” was correct about Jesus uttering that statement, so what? Again, Saul of Tarsus is out of the picture, he had never met Jesus, he does not know who raised him up, he had some bizarre ideas about God and about Jesus, things Jesus himself never uttered. But let’s assume that Jesus did raise himself up, If God gave him the power to raise someone else from death, surely God can also give him the power to raise himself from death. God is not limited or circumscribed by the mysteries of death or of life. I do not believe in this narrative, I am only indulging in it for the sake of discourse. Again, this is the problem with Christians, they are so committed, so devoted and in love with a particular doctrine that they force reality to conform to that line of belief. Even if we do take certain biblical verses that can be interpreted in a vast number of ways, depending on what your personal beliefs are, and interpret them in the exact manner Christians do, at most, the bible becomes a disorganized, jumbled, chaotic mess of contradictions, where no reasonable person will ever consider it as the word of a coherent, sane man, let alone the Creator of the universe. If we interpret the dubious verses like “My lord and my god,” “he who has seen me has seen the father.” or in this case “I will raise it up,” etc, to mean that Jesus is God, then we are left with the clear verses of the bible which makes that an impossibility. The clear, unambiguous, and explicit verses of the bible make it clear that Jesus was not God: Jesus himself having a God–how can a reasonable man believe God has a GOD! Jesus prostrating on his face, praying to God–how can an intellectually sound human believe God will fall down and pray to God, Jesus confessing that he himself has NO POWER to perform the wonders and miracles he performed, that it’s through the power of God that he is able to do so, Jesus clearly being subordinate to God, Jesus being ignorant of the fig, of the hour, Jesus being ignorant of who he himself was and never uttering “I am God, the God of Israel, I have come in the flesh, do not be mistaken by my human form, I am the creator of the universe, my role is to die for you and save you from the lake of fire,”—Trust me, when God forgets to reveal his true nature and His mission to humanity, while uttering contradictory and confused phrases which takes centuries to “resolve,” he absolutely is an unjust “god” and unworthy of worship. But let’s continue. Jesus confessing that whatever glory he had was GIVEN to him, a God is never GIVEN anything, a God always GIVES and provides, Jesus asking people “who do you think I am?” and the answer–unfortunately for the christian–was not “You are God, the creator of the universe, the God of Israel.” So if you take certain nebulous and vague verses to mean that Jesus is God, you have to account for the clear ones which deny him that role. You are left with very good reasons to confess that the bible cannot be trusted because it implies Jesus was God–if read that way– yet also strongly denies Jesus was God. The verses that deny Jesus any divinity, of course, are the stronger, clearer, explicit, and definite. But of course you take the other route, the one where you manufacture illusory, non-Biblical, specious constructs like the “hypo-static union.” You try to sell the world the idea that God was in heaven, yet he was also on earth as his own son, impregnating a human girl, living in her womb for 9 months, being born through her vaginal canal, living with humans, eating with humans, defecating with humans, urinating with humans, succumbing to fear, to passion, to myriad human emotions and needs, being 100 percent man and 100 percent god, while being equal with the Father, who was running the entire show, etc. etc. etc. Defend, the more I find out about Christianity, the more I ask God “how was I so lucky, that You, the God of Time, of Space, of the known and unknown, chose me and blessed me with Islam.” Anyways, I may not reply for awhile, I have summer classes and many many exams.

  • Hey Adam
    Where do you read that Mary was impregnated by God…that’s blasphemy!!

  • dc, jesus says, ” i can’t of my own self do nothing”

    can the father on his own self do everything ?

  • Defend, hows it blasphemy when I am merely illustrating a scenario the bible portrays by stating “The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[a] the Son of God.” (Luke 1:35) And, “This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about[a]: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit.” (Mathew 1:18). Now, are you denying that Christianity views the holy spirit as the 3rd person of the trinity? So what happened–according to the bible–is God “came down upon Mary” and “overshadowed” her, and she became pregnant with God. Where am I wrong here, defend? Are you implying that I indicated, somehow, that the holy spirit had sexual intercourse with Mary? I did not, of course, even if someone with a bit of creative imagination, and an axe to grind with Christianity, could read it that way and there can’t really be a tenable demonstration that such a reading is false based on the biblical phraseology But the issue isn’t whether the holy spirit had sexual intercourse with Mary or not. We’re trying to process in our minds the biblical scenario of God rendering a girl pregnant, and the baby is God himself, while God is also in heaven monitoring this entire event. Try to chew on that for while. Also, since you’re busy doing that, try and clarify a couple more issues. 1. Was Paul of Tarsus present while Jesus was “raised” from his putative resurrection? 2. Was the unknown author of “The Gospel of John” present while Jesus was “raised” from his resurrection?

  • Hi Adam
    This is how you can understand the scenario

    Gen 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

    Remember the Lord was already with Abraham on the earth right?

    As for the resurrection of Jesus going by your standards we shouldn’t believe a word Muhammad said because he came 600 years after every biblical character and he didn’t see anyone.

    God didn’t speak to him anything he never had an encounter with God he had the same experience as Joseph Smith meeting an angel.

    Who wrote down the Koran? And how did Muhammad know what was written was correct?

    Paul didn’t have to witness the resurrection but he would have heard Christians talking about it, and then Jesus himself appeared to him on the road to Damascus.

    As for John that’s another subject although in the gospel he did go to the tomb which is lot more than Prophet Muhammad ever did.

  • I find it rather amusing that Christians force feed their trinitarian views onto a people–the Jews– who have denied and wholeheartedly rejected the idea as foreign and pagan. We’re not talking about details of history like certain old Testament verses and whether they may pertain to Jesus or Mohammad–in case you try and attempt to turn the tables with the claim that “well, Jews also reject that Mohammad is found in their scriptures.” We’re discussing a topic of such profundity and significance that any other issue becomes inconsequential. We’re talking about the very nature of God. Notice how Abraham failed to mention “God is one but in three persons,” Moses, failed to proclaim “Oh my people, Know then that God is one, the father, the son, and the holy spirit,” Jesus himself suffered from a memory lapse that seemingly afflicted every prophet and messenger God had sent; Jesus, who had every reason and was obligated to reveal the ultimate truth of God to humanity did NOT proclaim “Hear o Israel that your God is one God, the Father, the son and the holy spirit.” Defend, you’re committing the very basic blunder and error so inherent to the Christian method of thought, they very one which I was addressing in my very long post, none of which you replied to. You’re taking a verse and forcing it to confirm your theological assumptions while the very people who have read it, understood it, have never ever seen even the remote hint of trinity in it. Was God that incompetent that he routinely proclaimed his Oneness, leading the Israelites to believe that He is One in Being and One in Person, yet He coded his true nature into vague and ambiguous verses so that one day people may decipher his true nature as “One God but 3 persons”? Think. The verse you posted above is no more than a rhetorical and stylistic misunderstanding on your part as an individual and the Christians in general. Christians, out of their sheer desperation to prove the trinity, have combed through the Old Testament and grabbed whatever verse that, if abused, twisted, and contorted, just may conform to their alien notions of God. You may have read “Lamech said to his wives,“Adah and Zillah, listen to me; wives of Lamech, hear my words.I have killed a man for wounding me, a young man for injuring me.” Genesis 4:23. Now according to your curious logic, there were two Lamechs in that instance. No, there was only one Lamech. And I bet my very soul, that there was only One God as understood by Jews and Muslims, in the verse you posted.Such manners and methods of rhetoric was employed for emphasis. The fire and brimstone was rained down from none but the Lord. Defend, I have a tendency to write massive articles and pretend they are comments, so I will condense it for you. 1. Is understanding and acknowledging the nature of God to be a trinity a precondition for salvation? If yes, the Jews who read their Bibles and did not recognize nor came to the conclusion that God is a trinity, are they within the Grace and Mercy of God and have acquired salvation, or not? 2. If understanding the nature of God a precondition to being saved, after all Jesus himself is part of that trinity–did God fail humanity prior to revealing his “true” trinitarian nature? 3. If God is perfect in wisdom, why did he not mention the trinity in clear and explicit terms so that today you and I would not be having this discussion, so that today every Jew would also be a trinitarian? 4. If God didn’t, for whatever reason, elucidate his trinitarian nature in the Old Testament, why did He also fail to do the same when he came down on earth and walked as a man named Jesus? Why did Jesus fail to simply utter “I am God, the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God, we’re 3 persons of the trinity, which is One God?” If God is perfect in wisdom, would He not think that throughout history man has had the tendency to forget, go astray, become deviant, adopt strange notions of God, and save man from such an expected course of behavior by reveaing his true nature to them in clear and explicit terms? If a God does not utter his nature which our salvation depends on, but allows people to come to that conclusion based on verses that can easily be translated differently, is he a just God? The part about Paul and John are not that germane to this discussion. I simply wanted you to admit that they were not eyewitnesses. A discussion of who Paul of Tarsus was and who Mohammad (pbuh) was is vast and would take us off topic very soon, if we’re not careful. If I have time in the future, I may address that. By the way, I, as a Muslim, do not believe that every word of the Old Testament is the inerrant, uncorrected, and unchanged word of God. Yes, certain strange ideas may have crept into it over time. What is not there is the Christian notion and understanding of the trinity.

  • Also, Mrsonic asked a question, it’s only courteous to at least acknowledge it.

  • dc, jesus says, ” i can’t of my own self do nothing”

    can the father on his own self do everything ?

  • “Paul didn’t have to witness the resurrection but he would have heard Christians talking about it, and then Jesus himself appeared to him on the road to Damascus.”

    hey dc, how come peter, paul, mark, john, james, andrew, stephen, nico couldn’t produce a flesh and blood jesus?

    how come the dead saints could appear to people in a city but no disciple could produce flesh and blood jesus?

    hey dc, “no sign shall be given to it except the sign of jonah…”

    but those who sought the sign did not get it.

  • Hi Adam
    I think you Muslims are the last people that should be accusing anyone of being pagan.

    Running between two hills…pagans were doing that first.

    Circumambulating the kaabah was being done years before any Islam

    Throwing stones at Satan

    Praying five times a day…was unique to the Muslims.

    Islam is a cut and paste religion

    For your information Lamach is reciting a poem! Nobody sensible would read the text as having two Lamach’s

    Genesis 19:24 is something quite different it is Moses that is narrating theses not God so you are wrong, stop trying to wax eloquent while trying to make out that I’m ignorant.

    It says quite clearly that Jehovah rained down…from Jehovah out of heaven. This is the writings of the Jew there is no stretching or twisting the text it is quite obvious.

    How did God appear to Abraham?

    Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
    Gen 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

    Who is speaking to Abraham in verse 13?

    Gen 18:13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?

    Yet again in the JEWISH text you can see that I am not twisting the scriptures it is quite simple to understand what it says.

    The revelation of the trinity comes to us starting from the book of Malachi and then into the gospel.

    Malachi 3:1. Behold I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord,whom you seek,shall suddenly come to the temple,even the messenger of the covenant…says the Lord of hosts.

    Who is this messenger?

    Isaiah 40:3. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

    This is obvious John the Baptist and so who was he making the path straight for?

    John 1:19-28 and then 29-34.

    It is the Lord that John is preparing the people for.

    John 1:1 in the beginning was the word and the word was with God,and the word was God.

    John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us,( we behold his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

  • Hi Adam
    Sorry about the typing errors.

  • Hi Adam
    Since you want to discuss the trinity I have a question for you and please give me an answer so we can continue to dialogue.

    Is the Holy Spirit 1. The Angel Gabriel or 2. Is it the Prophet Muhammad?

  • come on “defend christ”
    he wasn’t thinking that yhwh was going to be put in water, hold his breath, and then rise out of water and then cast out in to the wilderness.

    “This is obvious John the Baptist and so who was he making the path straight for?”

    “prepare the way”

  • Hi Mrsonic
    I don’t need the article just answer and respond to the scriptures I sent you, Adam was making the point of me not replying to you, now I have I would like a response to scriptures I gave revealing unity in the Godhead.

    you asked if the father could act independently and basically you haven’t answered anything I sent you so please send me answer in regards to the scriptures I gave not moving away to another subject.

  • Malachi 3:1. Behold I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord,whom you seek,shall suddenly come to the temple,even the messenger of the covenant…says the Lord of hosts.

    Isaiah 40:3. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

    so i see malachi write malachi 3:1

    i see is write is 40:3

    how do you derive from these texts that “yhwh” is 3 persons ?

    where do you get from the text that the “messenger” = 100 % flesh and blood human?

  • jesus says,
    “i can do NOTHING by myself…”

    dunamai: to be able, to have power
    Original Word: δύναμαι
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: dunamai
    Phonetic Spelling: (doo’-nam-ahee)
    Short Definition: I am powerful, am able
    Definition: (a) I am powerful, have (the) power, (b) I am able, I can.

    can the father do everything by himself ?

  • A voice of one calling:
    “In the wilderness prepare
    the way for the Lord[a];
    make straight in the desert
    a highway for our God.[b]
    4 Every valley shall be raised up,
    every mountain and hill made low;
    the rough ground shall become level,
    the rugged places a plain.
    5 And the glory of the Lord will be revealed,
    and all people will see it together.
    For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.”
    6 A voice says, “Cry out.”
    And I said, “What shall I cry?”
    “All people are like grass,
    and all their faithfulness is like the flowers of the field.
    7 The grass withers and the flowers fall,
    because the breath of the Lord blows on them.
    Surely the people are grass.
    8 The grass withers and the flowers fall,
    but the word of our God endures forever.”
    9 You who bring good news to Zion,
    go up on a high mountain.
    You who bring good news to Jerusalem,[c]
    lift up your voice with a shout,
    lift it up, do not be afraid;
    say to the towns of Judah,
    “Here is your God!”
    10 See, the Sovereign Lord comes with power,
    and he rules with a mighty arm.
    See, his reward is with him,
    and his recompense accompanies him.
    11 He tends his flock like a shepherd:
    He gathers the lambs in his arms
    and carries them close to his heart;
    he gently leads those that have young.

    so you tell me how messenger means yhwh in the person of the son
    tell me how it means that “messenger shares same identity as god.

  • Lamach was reading a poem, in other words he was utilizing a rhetorical device, a stylistic method of conveying an idea? That is exactly what I had told you, defend, that such a manner of speech is a rhetorical device, and now you just confirmed it for me. If no sensible person can ascertain from that statement that there are two Lamachs, no sensible person can draw the conclusion that there are two “Gods” or there are “two person of a trinity” from that biblical verse you posted.See, defend, your name is an exercise in irony, put the phrase “unable to” before your name and turn an irony into an amusing fact. I ask you questions born out of acknowledging and recognizing God’s Oneness as it appears and reappears in his Word—yes the Old Testament does contain His Word, the sayings of Jesus do contain His Word. No other proclamation is imbued with more power and exigency, with more direct appeal to man’s intellectual disposition and proclivity, and his predilection for reason than the Command that permeates the Cosmos: Your God is one God, there is no God besides Him! I ask questions without even citing one Quranic verse—I don’t believe I even cited the bible in my questions for support, I could be wrong. You leave them unanswered, not surprisingly, as Samuel Green also left my questions unanswered because he “Didn’t have time” in another post. Instead you repeat the specious Christian methodology of quote mining that is so rife with artifice. I already addressed that you, and your Christian brothers, like Shamoun, Woods, White, Brown, et.al routinely engage in games of eisegesis and willful manipulation of Biblical verses which actually completely destroys the reliability of the Bible. I will take the 3 angels appearing to Abraham and expose how horrid and inane the Christian perspective always is when fully examined. The Bible states that No man has ever seen God (1 John 4 verse 12). The Bible states that God is not a man, that he should lie, neither the son of man that he should repent. (Numbers 23:19). These verses are contradictory to the entire narrative of Abraham seeing God. Either the bible is correct when it claims that no man has seen God, and that God is not a man, or the bible is correct when it claims that Abraham saw God and he appeared as a man. They both cannot be true. The Christian interpretation—misinterpretation—of the entire event is profoundly problematic. 1. If Abraham saw the 3 men/angels, and recognized them as the trinity, as understood by Christians, why did Abraham never mention the trinity before or after this event? Abraham would have to be pretty versed in the Trinitarian notion, the Father, the son and the Holy Spirit, for him to see 3 men/angels and automatically assume “ah that is the God of Israel appearing as the 3 persons we know him to be!” Yet, Abraham never gives any indication that he knows who Jesus is, or that the trinity even exists. Very strange. Or are you claiming that Abraham did NOT recognize the 3 angels as the trinity? 2. If Abraham recognized the 3 men as the trinity, or even GOD, because apparently he says “my Lords” and previously, it’s stated that “Jehovah appeared to Abraham,” why on earth would Abraham then feel the need to “fetch some water” so that God can wash his feet? 3. If Abraham saw God as 3 men/angels, and recognized them to be God, why would he assume they needed to eat and attempt to “fetch a morsel of food, and strengthen ye your heart.” Bizarre behavior for any man towards God, let alone the friend of God, Abraham! 4. Does the God of the Bible eat? Because these angels—misconstrued by Trinitarians to confirm the trinity—ate food. Was the hypostatic union a unique attribute of Jesus inextricably intertwined with his salvific mission on earth, or did the members of trinity routinely became men or angels while their divine and human nature abided by the dynamics of the hypostatic union? 5. The 2 angels claim that “the lord Yahweh has sent us to destroy it,” referring to the city that was under the wrath of God. So if this is the trinity, and each member of the trinity is God, how on earth was God “sent” by God to destroy the city? Again we have something like the New Testament dilemma of God praying to God. Wouldn’t the two angels simply state, “I, Jehovah, will destroy it?” Being sent by God to perform an action separates the one being sent from the one who did the sending! It also demonstrates who is in charge.The angel which was talking to Abraham, while the other two angels had left, was referred to as “Jehova”. There are verses in the old testament that have used the terms “the Angel of the Lord” and “Yahweh” interchangeably. This is a great example of why we Muslims reject both the old and the new testaments, they are full of contradictory and problematic verses that undermine the Unity and the absolute Unique nature of God. If we take the “Angel of the Lord” to be Yahweh, yet again, we’re left the problem that Yahweh is His own messenger. The appellation really does become, Yahweh, the messenger of Yahweh. It’s possible that the “Angel of the Lord” is an angel who represents God and speaks on His behalf—hence why one of the angels seemingly is called Yahweh when talking to Abraham. Reading it that way, removes the problem of God being seen by man when the bible says man cannot see God, it also removes the issue of God becoming a man or in the form of a man, when the bible says God is not a man and does not change. Moreover, the term God is so casually used in the Old Testament that it loses its meaning. Jerusalem is called “Lord our righteousness”, in psalms 82:6 people are labeled as “Gods, sons of the most High” in exodus 7:1 Moses is labeled as God—even if it’s Elohim– most likely because he was a messenger of God, taking the very word of God to Pharaoh. Using your method of quote mining, I can prove from the Old Testament that God is a weak creature, unfit for worship. God wrestles Jacob in Genesis 32:22-31, God can’t overpower Jacob. God can’t overcome people because their chariots had iron. Judges 1:19 The LORD was with the men of Judah. They took possession of the hill country, but they were unable to drive the people from the plains, because they had chariots fitted with iron. God gets tired and needs to rest. Exodus 31:17 It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.See Defend, using your line of logic, the God of the old testament is not even a God, forget trinity. Of course you will say “yes but consider the context of those verses!” Oh the fun never ends.

  • Defend, if you want to prove the trinity, all you have to do is poste a verse where God says “I, God, am One, and in 3 persons, the father, the son, and the holy spirit.” You are wasting my time. I am a busy man. You are merely twisting biblical verses to fit your theological preconception. And failing at it. Anyone can do that. This discussion is over, we will let the readers, and Ijaz himself, to decide who formulated the more convincing case. I am engaged in the literal form of “pearls before swines.” You have failed to provide any good reasons for your belief in the trinity, I have pretty much eviscerated the entire notion. The question about Angel Jibreel and Mohammad are irrelevant to the trinity, we do not believe in this pagan concept. Notice how I did not call your trinitatian alien theology as pagan to begin with, I merely said, “the Jews consider Christianity a pagan religion.” Or something to that effect. Tovia Singer was the most recent Jewish Rabbi to condemn your religion as idolatry and Islam as a belief in One God. Here’s More Questions you will never answer, because you have not answered a single question I have posed so far. Aside of “if Paul was not an eye witness, Mohammad came 600 years later!” Yet, if Jesus stated ” I will raise it up” referring to his body, why on earth would someone change the verbatim word of Jesus and change it to “the spirit?” Why not keep Jesus’ word exactly was it was recorded? Curious.
    1.Jesus’ ignorance of the hour clearly disprove him being God, thus negates the very possibility that trinity is an actual being. Before you use James White’s argumentation of “Jesus chose to leave his glory and knowledge aside, he emptied himself,” notice that according to Jesus only the Father knows the hour. This creates the insurmountable problem of the holy spirit being ignorant of the hour, thus not being God. How can the son and holy spirit be co-equal with the father and yet suffer ignorance that the Father does not?
    2.The bible states Jesus was Given all that he possessed, such as John 17:22. And. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Mathew 28:18. Is being “given” glory and authority an attribute of God? Is the creator of the universe in need of being given anything?
    3.Jesus died. The claim always made is that ‘his human form died, just like when we die our souls leave our body.” If God was in Jesus, and Jesus was also a human, and if his human nature died, God left that flesh body of Jesus, yet there’s the human soul that dwelt in Jesus, where is that human soul now? Do we have the father, the son, the holy spirit, and Jesus’ human soul out there?

  • Hi Adam
    You said…

    I have pretty much eviscerated the entire notion. The question about Angel Jibreel and Mohammad are irrelevant to the trinity, we do not believe in this pagan concept.

    Well I’m sorry Adam it is relevant to the discussion.

    This is why I asked the question because there are a couple of views within Islam that I need clarified.

    Notice the following answer to this question.

    Dear scholars, As-Salamu `alaykum. I was a Christian before, and now I am confused about the definition of the Holy Spirit. What is the Holy Spirit according to Islam? I would like to know the meaning of the Holy Spirit specifically in surat al-Ma’idah (5: 110). Jazakum Allah khayran.

    Wa `alaykum As-Salamu wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh. 

    In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. 

    All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger. 

    Dear brother in Islam, we commend your eagerness to get Islamic knowledge. We earnestly implore Allah to bless your efforts in this honorable way and help us serve His cause and render our work for His Sake. 

    Answering the question you raised, Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, a senior lecturer and Islamic scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada, states: 

    “The Holy Spirit mentioned in the above verse refers to the Angel Jibreel (Gabriel), also known as Jibraaeel; he is the message-bearer par excellence from Allah, the Lord of Glory and Grace; he is also the conduit of divine support and assistance bestowed on Prophets, Messengers as well as righteous people who strive in the path of Allah. 

    1. Thus we read in the Qur’an that the Prophets (peace be upon them all) are chosen by Allah by sending down the Holy Spirit with the revelations: “He sends down the Spirit from His command, upon those of His servants He chooses, in order to warn people of the Day of Meeting.” (Ghafir: 15) 

    2. We also read in the Qur’an that it (the Qur’an) was sent down upon the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) through the medium of Holy Spirit: “Say: The Holy Spirit brought it down from your Lord with the truth, to strengthen those who believe, and as a guidance and good tidings to the Muslims.” (An-Nahl: 102)

    Secondly we also have what Muslims believe about the Prophet Muhammad.

    Many claim he is the spirit of truth…The Holy Ghost in the book of John

    Joh 14:26  But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    So some Muslims its Muhammad and others say it the Angel Gabriel.

    Let’s look at the bible and what it reveals.

    Luk 1:26  And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

    Luk 1:34  Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
    Luk 1:35  And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Notice that Gabriel doesn’t say…I shall come upon thee…and obviously the prophet Muhammad is not there and couldn’t cause Mary to have a child.

  • Hi Adam

    You said the following…

    Notice how I did not call your trinitatian alien theology as pagan to begin with, I merely said, “the Jews consider Christianity a pagan religion.” Or something to that effect. Tovia Singer was the most recent Jewish Rabbi to condemn your religion as idolatry and Islam as a belief in One God.

    What you just said is absolutely ridiculous…why? The reason this is rubbish is because the first believers in the church WERE JEWS!

    Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    Act 2:39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
    Act 2:40  And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
    Act 2:41  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

    This is after the first sermon that was preached these people were Jews, so unless you are speaking about Jews in our time then these people were already Jews in the text.

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